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> No brand new car should have issues that need fixing “Price, quality, manufacturing at scale. Pick two.” Ok, that’s a little flippant. But the underlying tr
by a4isms 4y ago
> No brand new car should have issues that need fixing
“Price, quality, manufacturing at scale. Pick two.”
Ok, that’s a little flippant. But the underlying truth is that quality for software and manufactured goods is one of many variables that can be dialled up or down at the expense of other variables.
- nix9000 4y agoHonda and Toyota seem to provide all three just fine. (Well, maybe not price right now because the entire car market is insane.)
- a4isms 4y agoBut Mitsubishi does not provide all three, and its prices are lower than Honda and Toyota. See also econoboxes from Eastern Europe. So my claim is that Honda and Toyota provide high value by balancing a low-ish (but not the lowest) price against high quality.
- kylehotchkiss 4y agoI recently got a Toyota in the insane market at MSRP! You can have all 3.
- andreareina 4y agoToyota kind of implies otherwise. Besides my impression is that Tesla doesn't really have manufacturing at scale yet. Aren't they still having trouble fulfilling orders?
- a4isms 4y agoSo Musk is picking fewer than two? Fair.
- judge2020 4y agoToyota is the king of doing all 3, it's a shame US automakers underestimated the Japanese. In terms of lemons, Toyota only has one every ~11.6 Million cars, while the lowest performer is Fiat with one lemon every 76k (Jeep, which is the same company as Fiat, at 131k). This publication didn't track Tesla, as the Model 3 started mass production 2 years after this article. https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2016/01/toyota-tops-fiat-flops-in-autoguide-s-1st-annual-lemon-list.html https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2016/01/toyota-tops-fiat...
- CamperBob2 4y agoThose numbers are far too low, probably by two orders of magnitude or more. To get a feel for the actual statistics, a very useful trick I came across on a Porsche forum is to look up the model on cargurus.com. E.g.: https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?zip=90210&showNegotiable=true&sortDir=ASC&sourceContext=untrackedWithinSite_false_0&distance=50000&sortType=DEAL_SCORE&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d2974 https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFi... Note the number of listings (401 nationwide listings for the Taycan at the moment) shown in the 'Filter Results' area. Scroll down to 'Vehicle History' and note the availability of the option to 'Hide vehicles with Lemon History Reported.' Next to that is a number reflecting how many used cars of a given make/model have a lemon title out of the set of cars currently for sale. With a 25:401 ratio, it can be inferred that almost 6% of used Taycans on the market were bought back by Porsche at some point.
- kimixa 4y agoI feel that may be biased, as presumably every lemon buyback from Porsche gets resold on the second hand market, but clearly not all cars from a 2020 model will have resold yet. I'd even go as far to say that the majority of a 1-2 year old car model will still be with the original purchaser.
- CamperBob2 4y agoIt's biased, but it's also proof that the numbers are far from the six-nines values the GP was referring to. They sell about 10K Taycans a year in North America, so there are likely around 20K on the road. I guess all that can be said with any certainty is that the proportion of lemons could be as bad as 6% or as good as 0.1% (if the ones for sale on Carguru at the moment happen to include all of the lemons ever produced.)
- bmitc 4y agoOr just pick Kia or Hyundai and get all three.
- lttlrck 4y agoOr not https://drivingdc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/autoguide-lemon-list.png https://drivingdc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/autoguide-l...
- bmitc 4y agoThat graphic gives zero information on how that is calculated or where the data came from. I have to assume that it includes historical data over long periods. Kia and Hyundai are totally different companies than they were decades ago and are different than even 5-10 years ago. There's no way a modern Kia or Hyundai would appear anywhere near the same level as on that list (and definitely not below any American car company or Fiat or Volkswagon).
- Ekaros 4y agoThat is rather weird metric. Mentions per brand mention... In what? And how could that take in account how often brands are talked about in general.
- lupire 4y agoTesla has 0/3