5 ms·

On the contrary, google employees would be breaking the law by hiring primarily because of religious preference and thus discriminating against competent candid

On the contrary, google employees would be breaking the law by hiring primarily because of religious preference and thus discriminating against competent candidates of other religious (or non) preference

woodruffw 4y ago
Cults are not religions. The body of decisions is remarkably explicit about this, when you consider how difficult the question “what is a religion” actually is. Edit: I forgot to provide references. Here’s a summary[1] of a 1988 California Supreme Court ruling in which the court determined that cult conduct does not fall under religious protections, even if the cult’s members might genuinely believe the cult’s doctrines. In other words, an internal decision by Google to terminate cult members because of their history of sex abuse or self dealing is unlikely expose them to civil litigation risk. [1]: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-10-18-mn-4552-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-10-18-mn-4552-s...
- volume 4y ago
  To me, there's a venn diagram. some cults are religions. Some are just cults and not religions. It sounds like you're coming from a legal perspective. Is that really the end-all-be-all representation of reality?
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Of course it isn’t. But this conversation is about the legal risk to Google, so that’s the only part I’m going to concern myself with.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    It is if you are talking about discrimination according to the law, which is what the thread has been debating.
- hinkley 4y ago
  And MLMs aren't pyramid schemes. At some point you have organizations that are doing the exact bare minimum to dodge a more unsavory classification. The Rule of Law can't legislate being a good person. It can only legislate not being a monster.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    I'm not interested in legislating the exact qualities of a "good person." I'm pointing out that, from a case law perspective, Google is entirely in clear to fire these people. The categorical question of "is X a cult" doesn't impinge on whether The Fellowship of Friends is a cult, which it is.
    - jonas21 4y ago
      The case you cited says nothing of the sort. It only establishes that a religious organization can be sued for fraud if it uses coercive persuasion ("brainwashing") techniques [1]. It doesn't make a statement as to what is or isn't considered a religion. It's worth noting that the Fellowship of Friends is recognized by both the IRS and California as a tax-exempt religious organization. And, at least from my perspective, it doesn't sound all that different from Scientology, which does enjoy First Amendment protections as a religion. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molko_v._Holy_Spirit_Ass%27n_for_the_Unification_of_World_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molko_v._Holy_Spirit_Ass%27n_f... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headley_v._Church_of_Scientology_International https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headley_v._Church_of_Scientolo...
    - hinkley 4y ago
      Note I said what the Rule of Law can't do, not whether it succeeded in doing anything. A Fortune 500 company I worked for had anti-discrimination training that said it was okay to discriminate against 45 year olds. And their harassment training said that it's not illegal for a bisexual manager to flirt with or grabass everyone because they're not being selective about it. I hope to god some later employees figured out how twisted both of those were and that, even if they are both true, you shouldn't call attention to it in ethics training, ffs.
- mullingitover 4y ago
  The only real difference between a cult and a religion is real estate.
- jordemort 4y ago
  Are you saying that hiring on the basis of cult membership would not qualify as religious discrimination, because cults are not religions?
- tomrod 4y ago
  Many religions are cults, and many cults are religions. Ergo religious discrimination could certainly happen.
- skissane 4y ago
  > Cults are not religions There is no universal consensus on how to define the term "cult". There are multiple competing definitions. In 1932, the sociologist Howard P. Becker introduced a fourfold classification of religious groups, into cults, sects, denominations and ecclesias (which was in turn an expansion of the theologian Ernst Troeltsch's earlier two-fold classification of religious groups as "churches" or "sects"). Cults and sects are religious groups with a high degree of tension with the surrounding society; cults have novel beliefs (in the context of that society), sects have traditional beliefs. Denominations are established religious groups with low tension with their society, but who do not dominate it. An ecclesia is a de jure or de facto state religion. By this set of definitions, cults are religions, if by "religion" one means "religious group". Many sociologists of religion continue to use Becker's definitions today; they are still part of the standard content of most university-level introductory courses on the sociology of religion – although not all sociologists endorse them, and some have put forward alternative proposals (such as Roy Wallis' proposal that the defining feature of cults is "epistemological individualism".) In most sociological use, "cult" is a value-neutral, non-judgemental term; in colloquial English, it has become a derogatory term, implying the group is harmful or aberrant. Some psychologists have developed formal definitions of "cults" as psychologically harmful organisations – it appears those psychologists were ignorant of the prior use of the term in sociology (or, possibly, knew about it but didn't care.) Many evangelical Christians promote a theological definition of the term "cult", in which it essentially means "Christian group we judge to be heretical"–in some cases, the label "cult" is even extended to include all non-Christian religions. You seem to be suggesting there is some legal definition of the term "cult", in the case law of some American states, including a legal distinction between "cult" and "religion". As evidence for this, you point to a newspaper article summarising the 1988 Supreme Court of California decision Molko v. Holy Spirit Assn. However, the newspaper article you cite never actually uses the word "cult" non-attributively–it is citing the use of the word by others, not using the word itself–and it is citing the use of the word by the plaintiff's expert witnesses and by activist groups, not the Court's justices as using the word. And, if you read the actual text of the decision [0], while it cites a number of journal articles and books with the word Cult in their titles, it never actually uses that word itself. I am wondering if maybe you are projecting this binary distinction which exists in your own mind, between "cults" and "religions", on to case law in which that distinction is never actually drawn. On the contrary, Justice Stanley Mosk's decision assumes that the alleged "cult" (in this case, The Unification Church) is a religion, and the case turns on what are the legal standards for fraud and emotional distress claims against religious groups. The Court's judgement is that you can sue a religious group for fraud and emotional distress, by alleging deceptive recruiting practices, brainwashing, etc; and that such lawsuits are not barred by the First Amendment. The actual decision doesn't turn at all on any cult-vs-religion distinction, the same legal standard applies to all religious groups, whether "cults" or not. And it was not a decision on whether or not the Unification Church actually had engaged in any such activities, or whether they were a "cult"; it was simply a preliminary ruling that the case against them could proceed to trial. (Ultimately, the case never went to trial, it was settled.) [1] https://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/molko-v-holy-spirit-assn-30806 https://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/molko-v-holy-spirit-assn...

woodruffw 4y ago

Cults are not religions. The body of decisions is remarkably explicit about this, when you consider how difficult the question “what is a religion” actually is. Edit: I forgot to provide references. Here’s a summary[1] of a 1988 California Supreme Court ruling in which the court determined that cult conduct does not fall under religious protections, even if the cult’s members might genuinely believe the cult’s doctrines. In other words, an internal decision by Google to terminate cult members because of their history of sex abuse or self dealing is unlikely expose them to civil litigation risk. [1]: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-10-18-mn-4552-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-10-18-mn-4552-s...

volume 4y ago
To me, there's a venn diagram. some cults are religions. Some are just cults and not religions. It sounds like you're coming from a legal perspective. Is that really the end-all-be-all representation of reality?
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Of course it isn’t. But this conversation is about the legal risk to Google, so that’s the only part I’m going to concern myself with.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  It is if you are talking about discrimination according to the law, which is what the thread has been debating.
hinkley 4y ago
And MLMs aren't pyramid schemes. At some point you have organizations that are doing the exact bare minimum to dodge a more unsavory classification. The Rule of Law can't legislate being a good person. It can only legislate not being a monster.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  I'm not interested in legislating the exact qualities of a "good person." I'm pointing out that, from a case law perspective, Google is entirely in clear to fire these people. The categorical question of "is X a cult" doesn't impinge on whether The Fellowship of Friends is a cult, which it is.
  - jonas21 4y ago
    The case you cited says nothing of the sort. It only establishes that a religious organization can be sued for fraud if it uses coercive persuasion ("brainwashing") techniques [1]. It doesn't make a statement as to what is or isn't considered a religion. It's worth noting that the Fellowship of Friends is recognized by both the IRS and California as a tax-exempt religious organization. And, at least from my perspective, it doesn't sound all that different from Scientology, which does enjoy First Amendment protections as a religion. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molko_v._Holy_Spirit_Ass%27n_for_the_Unification_of_World_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molko_v._Holy_Spirit_Ass%27n_f... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headley_v._Church_of_Scientology_International https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headley_v._Church_of_Scientolo...
  - hinkley 4y ago
    Note I said what the Rule of Law can't do, not whether it succeeded in doing anything. A Fortune 500 company I worked for had anti-discrimination training that said it was okay to discriminate against 45 year olds. And their harassment training said that it's not illegal for a bisexual manager to flirt with or grabass everyone because they're not being selective about it. I hope to god some later employees figured out how twisted both of those were and that, even if they are both true, you shouldn't call attention to it in ethics training, ffs.
mullingitover 4y ago
The only real difference between a cult and a religion is real estate.
jordemort 4y ago
Are you saying that hiring on the basis of cult membership would not qualify as religious discrimination, because cults are not religions?
tomrod 4y ago
Many religions are cults, and many cults are religions. Ergo religious discrimination could certainly happen.
skissane 4y ago
> Cults are not religions There is no universal consensus on how to define the term "cult". There are multiple competing definitions. In 1932, the sociologist Howard P. Becker introduced a fourfold classification of religious groups, into cults, sects, denominations and ecclesias (which was in turn an expansion of the theologian Ernst Troeltsch's earlier two-fold classification of religious groups as "churches" or "sects"). Cults and sects are religious groups with a high degree of tension with the surrounding society; cults have novel beliefs (in the context of that society), sects have traditional beliefs. Denominations are established religious groups with low tension with their society, but who do not dominate it. An ecclesia is a de jure or de facto state religion. By this set of definitions, cults are religions, if by "religion" one means "religious group". Many sociologists of religion continue to use Becker's definitions today; they are still part of the standard content of most university-level introductory courses on the sociology of religion – although not all sociologists endorse them, and some have put forward alternative proposals (such as Roy Wallis' proposal that the defining feature of cults is "epistemological individualism".) In most sociological use, "cult" is a value-neutral, non-judgemental term; in colloquial English, it has become a derogatory term, implying the group is harmful or aberrant. Some psychologists have developed formal definitions of "cults" as psychologically harmful organisations – it appears those psychologists were ignorant of the prior use of the term in sociology (or, possibly, knew about it but didn't care.) Many evangelical Christians promote a theological definition of the term "cult", in which it essentially means "Christian group we judge to be heretical"–in some cases, the label "cult" is even extended to include all non-Christian religions. You seem to be suggesting there is some legal definition of the term "cult", in the case law of some American states, including a legal distinction between "cult" and "religion". As evidence for this, you point to a newspaper article summarising the 1988 Supreme Court of California decision Molko v. Holy Spirit Assn. However, the newspaper article you cite never actually uses the word "cult" non-attributively–it is citing the use of the word by others, not using the word itself–and it is citing the use of the word by the plaintiff's expert witnesses and by activist groups, not the Court's justices as using the word. And, if you read the actual text of the decision [0], while it cites a number of journal articles and books with the word Cult in their titles, it never actually uses that word itself. I am wondering if maybe you are projecting this binary distinction which exists in your own mind, between "cults" and "religions", on to case law in which that distinction is never actually drawn. On the contrary, Justice Stanley Mosk's decision assumes that the alleged "cult" (in this case, The Unification Church) is a religion, and the case turns on what are the legal standards for fraud and emotional distress claims against religious groups. The Court's judgement is that you can sue a religious group for fraud and emotional distress, by alleging deceptive recruiting practices, brainwashing, etc; and that such lawsuits are not barred by the First Amendment. The actual decision doesn't turn at all on any cult-vs-religion distinction, the same legal standard applies to all religious groups, whether "cults" or not. And it was not a decision on whether or not the Unification Church actually had engaged in any such activities, or whether they were a "cult"; it was simply a preliminary ruling that the case against them could proceed to trial. (Ultimately, the case never went to trial, it was settled.) [1] https://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/molko-v-holy-spirit-assn-30806 https://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/molko-v-holy-spirit-assn...