4 ms·

Nobody is forcing you to pay at gunpoint, you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. Paying taxes is no different than mortgage or rent, either pay it

Nobody is forcing you to pay at gunpoint, you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. Paying taxes is no different than mortgage or rent, either pay it or get out. You don't fully own the property you live on even if it's paid off, it is the soil of the country you live in, if you want your own soil fight for your own sovereign territory and keep it through force without any help, good luck.

notch656a 4y ago
>Nobody is forcing you to pay at gunpoint, you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. OK so if a robber comes to my house and says pay up or leave, then that's not a forceful action at gunpoint? >you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. That's not how it works -- allow me to inform you of tax law in the US. US Citizens are responsible for filing, and possibly paying taxes on income earned ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. The US, and I believe Eritrea, are the only two nation's I'm aware of in the world like that. Now you could renounce citizenship, but even then that wouldn't satisfy your condition of "no longer pay" because you even have to pay over $2000 just to renounce citizenship, and that has to be done outside of the US. The US has been known to engage in "extraordinary rendition" which is to say they target/extract citizens even out of countries when there is no legal mechanism for them to do so. In short your claim here is incredibly innacurate. >Paying taxes is no different than mortgage or rent When I pay rent/mortgage it's for my own use of property in a private contract, in a voluntary exchange. Tax is an involuntary transaction. A very different thing. >, if you want your own soil fight for your own sovereign territory and keep it through force without any help, good luck. You start off saying nobody is forcing this at gunpoint but then you go on to challenge me to "keep it through force." You're starting to look like a violent person. It's really comical how quickly the façade drops of persons such as yourself who turn out to be persons of great violence who are quick to challenge others to engage in such activity.
- SigmundA 4y ago
  >OK so if a robber comes to my house and says pay up or leave, then that's not a forceful action at gunpoint? They are not a robber they are a landlord, you are on their land, pay taxes or leave your choice. They are not forcing you to stay and work and pay taxes at gunpoint, you have the choice to leave. However while you are there you must fund the services they are currently providing to you, if you willfully evade that payment then you are committing a crime, but you have the option not to, you always have choice. >That's not how it works -- allow me to inform you of tax law in the US. US Citizens are responsible for filing, and possibly paying taxes on income earned ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. Most standard income is covered under FEIE and FTC, that is you won't pay taxes twice if your paying taxes in another country utilizing their social service instead and if you have been truly living in working for almost a full year you pay no tax on the income. Note since you are US citizen you still benefit from their social service while living abroad, the are many protections upheld to US citizens traveling abroad you would no longer have if you renounce. >Now you could renounce citizenship, but even then that wouldn't satisfy your condition of "no longer pay" because you even have to pay over $2000 just to renounce citizenship, and that has to be done outside of the US. Exactly, you must pay your final rent payment and get out, no one is forcing you to stay. If you don't have the money to pay then you are not making income to pay taxes either. >When I pay rent/mortgage it's for my own use of property in a private contract, in a voluntary exchange. Tax is an involuntary transaction. A very different thing. You have agreed to the social contract [1], you are voluntarily staying in the country and utilizing the social services and resources (military and police protection, roads, public spaces etc.) to make money and live safely and productively. No one is forcing you to stay, there are places in this world that do not tax you for police and schools. >You start off saying nobody is forcing this at gunpoint but then you go on to challenge me to "keep it through force." That's the point, the reason you don't have to defend your property and life through force on a daily basis is because you have voluntarily agreed to live in a country that has the monopoly on violence [2] and in exchange for the social service of military and police protection you must pay taxes if you profit from that protection. People are social animals, they work together to solve problems no individual could on their own, money facilitates this and is needed to fund the large social framework you live under hence taxes. If government disappeared tomorrow, it's would be reformed quickly in not so pleasant ways. You may not like it but that doesn't matter because others will form large groups and impose it on you regardless and you will have no choice over its form. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    > You have agreed to the social contract [...] People like the GP reject the notion of social contract.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      I understand the 'notion' of social contract. However I choose not to accept the terms of the contract as envisioned by above. A key element of 'contract' is consent.
      - SigmundA 4y ago
        Then you must move out to someplace else that you wish to consent to or forge your own social contract which will require force unless you find un-inhabited unclaimed land. By staying within the bounds of a country you are consenting to its laws or are considered a criminal or foreign aggressor.
        notch656a 4y ago
        >Then you must move out to someplace else How about you move. It's hilarious to suggest the contract is still intact when the government violates the contract itself, such as abridging 4th and 2nd amendment rights, rendering the contract void. Just a few months ago, I had a warrant served where a homeland security official lied and said a drug dog had "alerted on my buttocks" and I was forcefully strip-searched and dragged to a hospital to be "internally examined." Sorry the government themselves violated the contract. And it's worth noting, even though the "contract" legitimize this, the last president didn't even have the assent of the majority of voters. >By staying within the bounds of a country you are consenting to its laws or are considered a criminal or foreign aggressor. I'm not too worried about whatever ad-hominem you'd like to label. >Note since you are US citizen you still benefit from their social service while living abroad, the are many protections upheld to US citizens traveling abroad you would no longer have if you renounce. This is so hilarious as to make me wonder if you've ever actually been to a US consulate abroad. I have, against my wishes due to riding in the same taxi with a 'friend.' We had both overstayed our visas, and the consular services basically said "lol get fucked, good luck!" I could have obtained the same services talking to a wall. I'm good on their services. >Exactly, you must pay your final rent payment and get out, no one is forcing you to stay. I If I've already "gotten out" including paying my taxes this rent analogy makes even less sense, not that it was a good one to begin with. I never signed a contract saying if I leave the non-existent contract I agree to pay $2000 to back out. > you don't have to defend your property and life through force on a daily basis I wonder if you've even been to the United States? It was not so long ago someone tried to rob me at gunpoint. I still have a scar from fighting back. On a daily basis, people are violently assaulted in my city. Nowadays I'm forced to have "protection" that I have daily in case someone tries to use lethal force against me again. The police have no legal duty to "defend" you per the supreme court. The type of protection police provide here, I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. As for military protection, I actually have fought as a self-funded volunteer in a foreign militia (YPG) against ISIS, so I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is about not using tax money to defend life. >However while you are there you must fund the services they are currently providing to you You don't get to just provide services for someone, who never agreed to it, and then demand payment. Payment for services is predicated on the parties consenting to the transaction. Providing service without the other party agreeing is charity at best, unwelcome intrusion at worst. >no one is forcing you to stay Except some people have had their passports revoked, and occasionally without even owing anyone anything ("for national security reasons.") In fact DHS has threatened to revoke my passport before, despite not breaking any law. It is a crime to leave the US without a passport. So the US does 'force' some people to stay. >People are social animals, they work together to solve problems no individual could on their own, money facilitates this and is needed to fund the large social framework People are capable of doing this in a consensual manner. In fact many businesses operate on this principle of consensual mutual benefit. >You may not like it but that doesn't matter because others will form large groups and impose it on you regardless and you will have no choice over its form. Back to your contradictory argument of "no one is forcing you at gunpoint" -- except you reneg and say actually they are.

notch656a 4y ago

>Nobody is forcing you to pay at gunpoint, you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. OK so if a robber comes to my house and says pay up or leave, then that's not a forceful action at gunpoint? >you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. That's not how it works -- allow me to inform you of tax law in the US. US Citizens are responsible for filing, and possibly paying taxes on income earned ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. The US, and I believe Eritrea, are the only two nation's I'm aware of in the world like that. Now you could renounce citizenship, but even then that wouldn't satisfy your condition of "no longer pay" because you even have to pay over $2000 just to renounce citizenship, and that has to be done outside of the US. The US has been known to engage in "extraordinary rendition" which is to say they target/extract citizens even out of countries when there is no legal mechanism for them to do so. In short your claim here is incredibly innacurate. >Paying taxes is no different than mortgage or rent When I pay rent/mortgage it's for my own use of property in a private contract, in a voluntary exchange. Tax is an involuntary transaction. A very different thing. >, if you want your own soil fight for your own sovereign territory and keep it through force without any help, good luck. You start off saying nobody is forcing this at gunpoint but then you go on to challenge me to "keep it through force." You're starting to look like a violent person. It's really comical how quickly the façade drops of persons such as yourself who turn out to be persons of great violence who are quick to challenge others to engage in such activity.

SigmundA 4y ago
>OK so if a robber comes to my house and says pay up or leave, then that's not a forceful action at gunpoint? They are not a robber they are a landlord, you are on their land, pay taxes or leave your choice. They are not forcing you to stay and work and pay taxes at gunpoint, you have the choice to leave. However while you are there you must fund the services they are currently providing to you, if you willfully evade that payment then you are committing a crime, but you have the option not to, you always have choice. >That's not how it works -- allow me to inform you of tax law in the US. US Citizens are responsible for filing, and possibly paying taxes on income earned ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. Most standard income is covered under FEIE and FTC, that is you won't pay taxes twice if your paying taxes in another country utilizing their social service instead and if you have been truly living in working for almost a full year you pay no tax on the income. Note since you are US citizen you still benefit from their social service while living abroad, the are many protections upheld to US citizens traveling abroad you would no longer have if you renounce. >Now you could renounce citizenship, but even then that wouldn't satisfy your condition of "no longer pay" because you even have to pay over $2000 just to renounce citizenship, and that has to be done outside of the US. Exactly, you must pay your final rent payment and get out, no one is forcing you to stay. If you don't have the money to pay then you are not making income to pay taxes either. >When I pay rent/mortgage it's for my own use of property in a private contract, in a voluntary exchange. Tax is an involuntary transaction. A very different thing. You have agreed to the social contract [1], you are voluntarily staying in the country and utilizing the social services and resources (military and police protection, roads, public spaces etc.) to make money and live safely and productively. No one is forcing you to stay, there are places in this world that do not tax you for police and schools. >You start off saying nobody is forcing this at gunpoint but then you go on to challenge me to "keep it through force." That's the point, the reason you don't have to defend your property and life through force on a daily basis is because you have voluntarily agreed to live in a country that has the monopoly on violence [2] and in exchange for the social service of military and police protection you must pay taxes if you profit from that protection. People are social animals, they work together to solve problems no individual could on their own, money facilitates this and is needed to fund the large social framework you live under hence taxes. If government disappeared tomorrow, it's would be reformed quickly in not so pleasant ways. You may not like it but that doesn't matter because others will form large groups and impose it on you regardless and you will have no choice over its form. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  > You have agreed to the social contract [...] People like the GP reject the notion of social contract.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    I understand the 'notion' of social contract. However I choose not to accept the terms of the contract as envisioned by above. A key element of 'contract' is consent.
    - SigmundA 4y ago
      Then you must move out to someplace else that you wish to consent to or forge your own social contract which will require force unless you find un-inhabited unclaimed land. By staying within the bounds of a country you are consenting to its laws or are considered a criminal or foreign aggressor.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        >Then you must move out to someplace else How about you move. It's hilarious to suggest the contract is still intact when the government violates the contract itself, such as abridging 4th and 2nd amendment rights, rendering the contract void. Just a few months ago, I had a warrant served where a homeland security official lied and said a drug dog had "alerted on my buttocks" and I was forcefully strip-searched and dragged to a hospital to be "internally examined." Sorry the government themselves violated the contract. And it's worth noting, even though the "contract" legitimize this, the last president didn't even have the assent of the majority of voters. >By staying within the bounds of a country you are consenting to its laws or are considered a criminal or foreign aggressor. I'm not too worried about whatever ad-hominem you'd like to label. >Note since you are US citizen you still benefit from their social service while living abroad, the are many protections upheld to US citizens traveling abroad you would no longer have if you renounce. This is so hilarious as to make me wonder if you've ever actually been to a US consulate abroad. I have, against my wishes due to riding in the same taxi with a 'friend.' We had both overstayed our visas, and the consular services basically said "lol get fucked, good luck!" I could have obtained the same services talking to a wall. I'm good on their services. >Exactly, you must pay your final rent payment and get out, no one is forcing you to stay. I If I've already "gotten out" including paying my taxes this rent analogy makes even less sense, not that it was a good one to begin with. I never signed a contract saying if I leave the non-existent contract I agree to pay $2000 to back out. > you don't have to defend your property and life through force on a daily basis I wonder if you've even been to the United States? It was not so long ago someone tried to rob me at gunpoint. I still have a scar from fighting back. On a daily basis, people are violently assaulted in my city. Nowadays I'm forced to have "protection" that I have daily in case someone tries to use lethal force against me again. The police have no legal duty to "defend" you per the supreme court. The type of protection police provide here, I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. As for military protection, I actually have fought as a self-funded volunteer in a foreign militia (YPG) against ISIS, so I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is about not using tax money to defend life. >However while you are there you must fund the services they are currently providing to you You don't get to just provide services for someone, who never agreed to it, and then demand payment. Payment for services is predicated on the parties consenting to the transaction. Providing service without the other party agreeing is charity at best, unwelcome intrusion at worst. >no one is forcing you to stay Except some people have had their passports revoked, and occasionally without even owing anyone anything ("for national security reasons.") In fact DHS has threatened to revoke my passport before, despite not breaking any law. It is a crime to leave the US without a passport. So the US does 'force' some people to stay. >People are social animals, they work together to solve problems no individual could on their own, money facilitates this and is needed to fund the large social framework People are capable of doing this in a consensual manner. In fact many businesses operate on this principle of consensual mutual benefit. >You may not like it but that doesn't matter because others will form large groups and impose it on you regardless and you will have no choice over its form. Back to your contradictory argument of "no one is forcing you at gunpoint" -- except you reneg and say actually they are.