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I would say you’re selling it not really because of “service” but rather because they simply sold you a crappy car in the first place. No brand new car should h

I would say you’re selling it not really because of “service” but rather because they simply sold you a crappy car in the first place. No brand new car should have issues that need fixing.

LeoPanthera 4y ago
That's true, but if they had fixed all the problems in the first couple of weeks, I wouldn't have minded too much. Unfortunately they didn't, and worse, they lie about problems being "normal".
Alupis 4y ago
> No brand new car should have issues that need fixing. As much as I'd love this to be true (and it should be), I have yet to buy a newly manufactured vehicle that didn't have to go back to the dealership for something at least once... often more than once. I don't think it's entirely fair to lay that aspect at Tesla's feet. It is fair, however, to expect better and more timely service in getting those repairs made.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  But a single something, even if it takes two trips to resolve, is a whole lot less than this list of ~18 problems with ~23 service visits that span from mildly annoying (wrong model listed in software) to serious (steering system grinding, which they had the audacity to pass off as normal). This has to be close to qualifying for lemon law status?
  - LeoPanthera 4y ago
    It wasn't 23 service visits, as I attempted to have multiple problems fixed per visit. So far it has been in service for 14 days spread across 7 services. California lemon laws require a car to be in service for at least 30 days in the first 18 months.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
  I’ve done it twice. Out of two new vehicles. YMMV.
- colejohnson66 4y ago
  Strange. The 3 Honda Civics I’ve owned (brand new when driven off the lots) have all had no “bring back to the dealership” issues except recalls.
  - sam345 4y ago
    Same with my several Camrys, Honda pilot, and Toyota.;)
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Yah Honda and Toyota will eat Tesla alive once they get moving with EVs which they have.
    - stevenjgarner 4y ago
      Do you think Honda, Toyota and every other car manufacturer would even be offering electric vehicles at this time if Tesla did not exist?
      - synthc 4y ago
        I think they would. Toyota already had very good hybrid cars for years, so plenty of experiences with batteries. Tesla made electric cars sexy, but I was always just a matter of time before electric would go mainstream.
        stevenjgarner 4y ago
        I think the existing investment in tooling, plant and equipment that these companies have accumulated makes it hard to economically justify starting from scratch with new tooling, plant and equipment on a product line that has no competition. Tesla provided that competition, and justified such investment.
      - roflyear 4y ago
        Who cares?
- kabdib 4y ago
  My family has had 4 cars in the last 15 years (I won't mention models, but they were fairly reasonable, middle-of-the-pack vehicles). Three of them had no defects at all. The most recent one, a hybrid with a bunch of fancy electronics, had just a couple of problems, covered under warranty and fixed in less than a day. (And if our dealers flake out, there are independent service and repair shops that can do the same job, or better). When several of my Tesla-owning cow-orkers reported waiting six months for things like body panels, I resolved not to buy one.
- aatharuv 4y ago
  My car made by Toyota never had to go to the shop for anything serious for several years. Sure, I needed to get tires replaced multiple times, but internals took 7-8 years, and I finally sold it off at the 12 year mark, after having replaced the batteries, the alternator, and the brakes. My BMW took at least a couple of years before I ran into problems. A new vehicle shouldn't have any problems for at least a couple of years, period.
a4isms 4y ago
> No brand new car should have issues that need fixing “Price, quality, manufacturing at scale. Pick two.” Ok, that’s a little flippant. But the underlying truth is that quality for software and manufactured goods is one of many variables that can be dialled up or down at the expense of other variables.
- nix9000 4y ago
  Honda and Toyota seem to provide all three just fine. (Well, maybe not price right now because the entire car market is insane.)
  - a4isms 4y ago
    But Mitsubishi does not provide all three, and its prices are lower than Honda and Toyota. See also econoboxes from Eastern Europe. So my claim is that Honda and Toyota provide high value by balancing a low-ish (but not the lowest) price against high quality.
  - kylehotchkiss 4y ago
    I recently got a Toyota in the insane market at MSRP! You can have all 3.
- andreareina 4y ago
  Toyota kind of implies otherwise. Besides my impression is that Tesla doesn't really have manufacturing at scale yet. Aren't they still having trouble fulfilling orders?
  - a4isms 4y ago
    So Musk is picking fewer than two? Fair.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    Toyota is the king of doing all 3, it's a shame US automakers underestimated the Japanese. In terms of lemons, Toyota only has one every ~11.6 Million cars, while the lowest performer is Fiat with one lemon every 76k (Jeep, which is the same company as Fiat, at 131k). This publication didn't track Tesla, as the Model 3 started mass production 2 years after this article. https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2016/01/toyota-tops-fiat-flops-in-autoguide-s-1st-annual-lemon-list.html https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2016/01/toyota-tops-fiat...

I would say you’re selling it not really because of “service” but rather because they simply sold you a crappy car in the first place. No brand new car should have issues that need fixing.

LeoPanthera 4y ago

That's true, but if they had fixed all the problems in the first couple of weeks, I wouldn't have minded too much. Unfortunately they didn't, and worse, they lie about problems being "normal".

Alupis 4y ago

> No brand new car should have issues that need fixing. As much as I'd love this to be true (and it should be), I have yet to buy a newly manufactured vehicle that didn't have to go back to the dealership for something at least once... often more than once. I don't think it's entirely fair to lay that aspect at Tesla's feet. It is fair, however, to expect better and more timely service in getting those repairs made.

alistairSH 4y ago
But a single something, even if it takes two trips to resolve, is a whole lot less than this list of ~18 problems with ~23 service visits that span from mildly annoying (wrong model listed in software) to serious (steering system grinding, which they had the audacity to pass off as normal). This has to be close to qualifying for lemon law status?
- LeoPanthera 4y ago
  It wasn't 23 service visits, as I attempted to have multiple problems fixed per visit. So far it has been in service for 14 days spread across 7 services. California lemon laws require a car to be in service for at least 30 days in the first 18 months.
Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
I’ve done it twice. Out of two new vehicles. YMMV.
colejohnson66 4y ago
Strange. The 3 Honda Civics I’ve owned (brand new when driven off the lots) have all had no “bring back to the dealership” issues except recalls.
- sam345 4y ago
  Same with my several Camrys, Honda pilot, and Toyota.;)
- roflyear 4y ago
  Yah Honda and Toyota will eat Tesla alive once they get moving with EVs which they have.
  - stevenjgarner 4y ago
    Do you think Honda, Toyota and every other car manufacturer would even be offering electric vehicles at this time if Tesla did not exist?
    - synthc 4y ago
      I think they would. Toyota already had very good hybrid cars for years, so plenty of experiences with batteries. Tesla made electric cars sexy, but I was always just a matter of time before electric would go mainstream.
      - stevenjgarner 4y ago
        I think the existing investment in tooling, plant and equipment that these companies have accumulated makes it hard to economically justify starting from scratch with new tooling, plant and equipment on a product line that has no competition. Tesla provided that competition, and justified such investment.
    - roflyear 4y ago
      Who cares?
kabdib 4y ago
My family has had 4 cars in the last 15 years (I won't mention models, but they were fairly reasonable, middle-of-the-pack vehicles). Three of them had no defects at all. The most recent one, a hybrid with a bunch of fancy electronics, had just a couple of problems, covered under warranty and fixed in less than a day. (And if our dealers flake out, there are independent service and repair shops that can do the same job, or better). When several of my Tesla-owning cow-orkers reported waiting six months for things like body panels, I resolved not to buy one.
aatharuv 4y ago
My car made by Toyota never had to go to the shop for anything serious for several years. Sure, I needed to get tires replaced multiple times, but internals took 7-8 years, and I finally sold it off at the 12 year mark, after having replaced the batteries, the alternator, and the brakes. My BMW took at least a couple of years before I ran into problems. A new vehicle shouldn't have any problems for at least a couple of years, period.

a4isms 4y ago

> No brand new car should have issues that need fixing “Price, quality, manufacturing at scale. Pick two.” Ok, that’s a little flippant. But the underlying truth is that quality for software and manufactured goods is one of many variables that can be dialled up or down at the expense of other variables.

nix9000 4y ago
Honda and Toyota seem to provide all three just fine. (Well, maybe not price right now because the entire car market is insane.)
- a4isms 4y ago
  But Mitsubishi does not provide all three, and its prices are lower than Honda and Toyota. See also econoboxes from Eastern Europe. So my claim is that Honda and Toyota provide high value by balancing a low-ish (but not the lowest) price against high quality.
- kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  I recently got a Toyota in the insane market at MSRP! You can have all 3.
andreareina 4y ago
Toyota kind of implies otherwise. Besides my impression is that Tesla doesn't really have manufacturing at scale yet. Aren't they still having trouble fulfilling orders?
- a4isms 4y ago
  So Musk is picking fewer than two? Fair.
- judge2020 4y ago
  Toyota is the king of doing all 3, it's a shame US automakers underestimated the Japanese. In terms of lemons, Toyota only has one every ~11.6 Million cars, while the lowest performer is Fiat with one lemon every 76k (Jeep, which is the same company as Fiat, at 131k). This publication didn't track Tesla, as the Model 3 started mass production 2 years after this article. https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2016/01/toyota-tops-fiat-flops-in-autoguide-s-1st-annual-lemon-list.html https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2016/01/toyota-tops-fiat...