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Safari on mobile has lagged behind standards for a long time, because doing so wouldn't strengthen their app business. E.g. webrtc. Safari still lags behind ma

Safari on mobile has lagged behind standards for a long time, because doing so wouldn't strengthen their app business. E.g. webrtc. Safari still lags behind many things. When you call people to be careful, you are missing the conflict apple has internally. Between the two, i choose chrome any day of the week because that's what allowed web to progress this fast

gbear605 4y ago
The web has been progressing too fast, and most of the things that Safari has held back on are features that developers want but users don’t, like push notifications.
- tehlike 4y ago
  Push notifications exists in app and it's easy to categorically disable it. I am absolutely happy that i have a few pwas installed on my phone that lets me do stuff on phone and desktop together. The fact that i had to/have to install an app (zoom, etc) to accept a conference call is sad.
- tylerhou 4y ago
  I'd rather enable push notifications on a website than have to install a whole new app if I want them.
- kevingadd 4y ago
  If push notifications are so bad why does every mobile app spam me with them? All of these things "users don't want" are right there for use in App Store apps. They're only held back from the browser because they want you to give them 30%. In some cases they literally added features to Safari but restricted them for use in advertisements only (WebGL for one example, IIRC) because the features aren't the problem, the problem is developers accessing customers without paying 30%.
  - gbear605 4y ago
    Many push notifications are spam that developers want to send and users don’t actually care about. But more than that, the fact that you actually downloaded an app is much higher proof that you want to get notifications than just going to a site and clicking yes on a dialog. Dialogs basically mean nothing because users will just click yes without thinking about it.
    - tehlike 4y ago
      Then you want solution to notification problem. Very specific issue vs broader "web sites are bad, apple is doing good" issue.
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  > The web has been progressing too fast How many Apple engineers does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: None, they just declare darkness to be an innovative new feature. I joke, but they did recently reveal that they're adding a toggle for Dark Mode in Safari: https://www.macrumors.com/2022/03/01/safari-feature-light-dark-mode-specific-site/ https://www.macrumors.com/2022/03/01/safari-feature-light-da...
  - tehlike 4y ago
    Chrome extensions (which are sadly still disabled in android chrome) actually can fix this without new feature (beauty of extensibility, i guess). Dark reader extension is fairly good.
- indymike 4y ago
  Agreed that web push is abused by media websites. This is the the most important feature in when converting from a mobile app to pwa. For example, how can my applicant tracking app tell the user they have a new job candidate? How do you alert a user they have a new message on mobile without being able to use notifications? Without proper support for mobile apps from the browser, we're stuck with even more invasive native apps.
xh-dude 4y ago
Maybe there’s a counterfactual timeline where Apple didn’t nuke Flash on phones, hmm… interesting to think about. I think I’m happier with apps rather than apps-in-the-browser in the end, and this might be a similar contrast - it’s technically interesting to have browsers do more or do everything but I’m not convinced it’s the best for users living in software ecosystems.
- tehlike 4y ago
  If the distribution of the app is gatekept by apple, it's problematic. That's why apple hasn't invested much in web.
threeseed 4y ago
So because Apple takes time to add features in a secure, private and efficient way they are being accused of lagging behind standards. And you literally just described the inherent problem. Developers will move to the platform that gives it the most flexibility and features. Users follow. And we end up back in IE days with less diversity and less competition.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  That's generous. Apple also ships buggy implementations despite taking more time to ship. Then taking years to fix, if ever. And rarely backporting fixes to older releases.
  - tehlike 4y ago
    Exactly this. "Slow because careful" is only charitable.
userbinator 4y ago
The "standards" which are mainly controlled by Google? Between the two, i choose chrome any day of the week because that's what allowed web to progress this fast I don't call that "progress" --- perhaps progress towards a Google monopoly, if you really insist. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Change is Google's weapon. They can churn the standards all they want in order to outrun competitors because only they are big enough to do that. All that "pushing the web forward" BS was merely an euphemism for Google to take control of the Internet with its gigantic army of ADHD-driven developers.
- tehlike 4y ago
  I mean... So far, most things that I consider "standard" have been _fairly_ meaningful for consumers, and open for everyone to use, free of charge. I am extremely happy when I don't have to install an app, including when video chatting (which zoom is extremely guilty of).

gbear605 4y ago

The web has been progressing too fast, and most of the things that Safari has held back on are features that developers want but users don’t, like push notifications.

tehlike 4y ago
Push notifications exists in app and it's easy to categorically disable it. I am absolutely happy that i have a few pwas installed on my phone that lets me do stuff on phone and desktop together. The fact that i had to/have to install an app (zoom, etc) to accept a conference call is sad.
tylerhou 4y ago
I'd rather enable push notifications on a website than have to install a whole new app if I want them.
kevingadd 4y ago
If push notifications are so bad why does every mobile app spam me with them? All of these things "users don't want" are right there for use in App Store apps. They're only held back from the browser because they want you to give them 30%. In some cases they literally added features to Safari but restricted them for use in advertisements only (WebGL for one example, IIRC) because the features aren't the problem, the problem is developers accessing customers without paying 30%.
- gbear605 4y ago
  Many push notifications are spam that developers want to send and users don’t actually care about. But more than that, the fact that you actually downloaded an app is much higher proof that you want to get notifications than just going to a site and clicking yes on a dialog. Dialogs basically mean nothing because users will just click yes without thinking about it.
  - tehlike 4y ago
    Then you want solution to notification problem. Very specific issue vs broader "web sites are bad, apple is doing good" issue.
dane-pgp 4y ago
> The web has been progressing too fast How many Apple engineers does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: None, they just declare darkness to be an innovative new feature. I joke, but they did recently reveal that they're adding a toggle for Dark Mode in Safari: https://www.macrumors.com/2022/03/01/safari-feature-light-dark-mode-specific-site/ https://www.macrumors.com/2022/03/01/safari-feature-light-da...
- tehlike 4y ago
  Chrome extensions (which are sadly still disabled in android chrome) actually can fix this without new feature (beauty of extensibility, i guess). Dark reader extension is fairly good.
indymike 4y ago
Agreed that web push is abused by media websites. This is the the most important feature in when converting from a mobile app to pwa. For example, how can my applicant tracking app tell the user they have a new job candidate? How do you alert a user they have a new message on mobile without being able to use notifications? Without proper support for mobile apps from the browser, we're stuck with even more invasive native apps.

xh-dude 4y ago

Maybe there’s a counterfactual timeline where Apple didn’t nuke Flash on phones, hmm… interesting to think about. I think I’m happier with apps rather than apps-in-the-browser in the end, and this might be a similar contrast - it’s technically interesting to have browsers do more or do everything but I’m not convinced it’s the best for users living in software ecosystems.

tehlike 4y ago
If the distribution of the app is gatekept by apple, it's problematic. That's why apple hasn't invested much in web.

threeseed 4y ago

So because Apple takes time to add features in a secure, private and efficient way they are being accused of lagging behind standards. And you literally just described the inherent problem. Developers will move to the platform that gives it the most flexibility and features. Users follow. And we end up back in IE days with less diversity and less competition.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
That's generous. Apple also ships buggy implementations despite taking more time to ship. Then taking years to fix, if ever. And rarely backporting fixes to older releases.
- tehlike 4y ago
  Exactly this. "Slow because careful" is only charitable.

userbinator 4y ago

The "standards" which are mainly controlled by Google? Between the two, i choose chrome any day of the week because that's what allowed web to progress this fast I don't call that "progress" --- perhaps progress towards a Google monopoly, if you really insist. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Change is Google's weapon. They can churn the standards all they want in order to outrun competitors because only they are big enough to do that. All that "pushing the web forward" BS was merely an euphemism for Google to take control of the Internet with its gigantic army of ADHD-driven developers.

tehlike 4y ago
I mean... So far, most things that I consider "standard" have been _fairly_ meaningful for consumers, and open for everyone to use, free of charge. I am extremely happy when I don't have to install an app, including when video chatting (which zoom is extremely guilty of).