3 ms·

I didn't give any value judgement to it and I don't have any suggestions as I really haven't spent a lot of time on that problem space. If I become an OS develo

I didn't give any value judgement to it and I don't have any suggestions as I really haven't spent a lot of time on that problem space. If I become an OS developer I'll give that problem some thought. But the idea that Mac is somehow "intuitive" is laughable, IMO (I say that as someone who has used a wide variety of computer OSes since the 80s).

hbn 4y ago
It's intuitive to do the basic stuff casual users need. If you want to go beyond that, you figure out how by doing some basic research. The OS isn't going to upload an entire reference manual into your brain as soon as you boot it for the first time.
- LocalPCGuy 4y ago
  And no one but you is claiming anything about manuals being beamed into brains. I disagree with the idea that MacOS is any more intuitive than any other modern OS (which is the claim that Apple and that I've heard others, make; I'm not saying you are making that claim necessarily). And to bring this back on point, to my very specific original comment, the poster I was responding too said this wasn't "hidden behind a keyboard shortcut" when it most definitely was. Not sure we need to delve into the nitty-gritty of how people learn OSes in this thread anymore than we have.
  - marcellus23 4y ago
    > And to bring this back on point, to my very specific original comment, the poster I was responding too said this wasn't "hidden behind a keyboard shortcut" when it most definitely was I'm that original poster. The comment I responded to was clearly referring to holding "ctrl" in order to save to clipboard, not referring to the screenshot ability itself (which as others have mentioned, is not hidden behind a keyboard shortcut, but is an app in Applications/Utilities)
    - LocalPCGuy 4y ago
      I maintain my comments and opinion, still "hidden behind a shortcut", even if you can find it as an app also. Or even if all you're referring to is the Ctrl modifier.
      - marcellus23 4y ago
        You and I have very different definitions of "hidden".
ggm 4y ago
The quality I take from it, is that the cmd/option/shift behaviours as modifiers, are policed well, and its like emacs: there's an overall consistency to what they want you to do, burned into muscle memory. You cannot realistically make every single cmd+<letter> mnemonic. They do the best they can inside the circumstances, and then having chosen a base key, they say "ok. what do we bind to the alternates via option/shift" so it makes contextual sense. I regard that as seeking intuitive behaviour. You are invited to (subconsciously) consider CMD+key as the base to learn, and then CMD+OPTION or CMD+SHIFT variants as the obvious alternates. The key here, is ownership of the UI/UX: they police this. Much though Microsoft tries, it doesn't police this well enough across the independent app vendors outside of a tiny core of functions. Between Gnome and KDE, there is no policing. I said emacs, because the basics of modifying lines of text in most things now, are emacs line modifiers by inheritance: because the X10-> X11 -> XOrg uplift means that the web omnibar and text boxes are inherently derived from X, the keystrokes to edit text are inherited from MIT X which inherited from MIT emacs. As a VI user I just had to come to terms with this: Sure, you CAN force override them to VI friendly form, nobody does: we're all emacs keystroke users in this narrow sense. Emacs won.

hbn 4y ago

It's intuitive to do the basic stuff casual users need. If you want to go beyond that, you figure out how by doing some basic research. The OS isn't going to upload an entire reference manual into your brain as soon as you boot it for the first time.

LocalPCGuy 4y ago
And no one but you is claiming anything about manuals being beamed into brains. I disagree with the idea that MacOS is any more intuitive than any other modern OS (which is the claim that Apple and that I've heard others, make; I'm not saying you are making that claim necessarily). And to bring this back on point, to my very specific original comment, the poster I was responding too said this wasn't "hidden behind a keyboard shortcut" when it most definitely was. Not sure we need to delve into the nitty-gritty of how people learn OSes in this thread anymore than we have.
- marcellus23 4y ago
  > And to bring this back on point, to my very specific original comment, the poster I was responding too said this wasn't "hidden behind a keyboard shortcut" when it most definitely was I'm that original poster. The comment I responded to was clearly referring to holding "ctrl" in order to save to clipboard, not referring to the screenshot ability itself (which as others have mentioned, is not hidden behind a keyboard shortcut, but is an app in Applications/Utilities)
  - LocalPCGuy 4y ago
    I maintain my comments and opinion, still "hidden behind a shortcut", even if you can find it as an app also. Or even if all you're referring to is the Ctrl modifier.
    - marcellus23 4y ago
      You and I have very different definitions of "hidden".

ggm 4y ago

The quality I take from it, is that the cmd/option/shift behaviours as modifiers, are policed well, and its like emacs: there's an overall consistency to what they want you to do, burned into muscle memory. You cannot realistically make every single cmd+<letter> mnemonic. They do the best they can inside the circumstances, and then having chosen a base key, they say "ok. what do we bind to the alternates via option/shift" so it makes contextual sense. I regard that as seeking intuitive behaviour. You are invited to (subconsciously) consider CMD+key as the base to learn, and then CMD+OPTION or CMD+SHIFT variants as the obvious alternates. The key here, is ownership of the UI/UX: they police this. Much though Microsoft tries, it doesn't police this well enough across the independent app vendors outside of a tiny core of functions. Between Gnome and KDE, there is no policing. I said emacs, because the basics of modifying lines of text in most things now, are emacs line modifiers by inheritance: because the X10-> X11 -> XOrg uplift means that the web omnibar and text boxes are inherently derived from X, the keystrokes to edit text are inherited from MIT X which inherited from MIT emacs. As a VI user I just had to come to terms with this: Sure, you CAN force override them to VI friendly form, nobody does: we're all emacs keystroke users in this narrow sense. Emacs won.