6 ms·

people love to talk about how many useful features MacOS has and how user-friendly it is but too many are buried behind a keyboard shortcut with no other way to

by nsonha 4y ago

people love to talk about how many useful features MacOS has and how user-friendly it is but too many are buried behind a keyboard shortcut with no other way to access. And no "read the manual" isn't it. From certain scale the manual should be out of the window and UI should accomodate for people to learn while using it.

lelandfe 4y ago
/System/Applications/Utilities/Screenshot.app (the interface of which can also be reached via Cmd-Shift-5, allowing video recording and much more)
marcellus23 4y ago
It isn't hidden behind a keyboard shortcut. CMD+Shift+5 exposes the full screenshot UI, and under the clearly-named Options button is a menu that lets you pick the clipboard as the place to save. Holding CTRL is just a... well... "shortcut" for that.
- nsonha 4y ago
  I use the non-UI snapshot feature a lot more often than video capture so didn't realize that. I guess it was just a more general comment that comes from things like the switching window/app hotkeys. In this instance, there is another issue with finding out holding CTRL does what it does.
- LocalPCGuy 4y ago
  That is literally the definition of "hidden behind a keyboard shortcut" - you have to be told or lookup CMD+Shift-5 before you can get to the full screenshot UI. It's been a while since I first used MacOS, but I don't remember it telling me how to do that.
  - CharlesW 4y ago
    > That is literally the definition of "hidden behind a keyboard shortcut" - you have to be told or lookup CMD+Shift-5 before you can get to the full screenshot UI. Or more likely, new users search for "screenshot" in Spotlight the first few times, and if they do this enough maybe Google "mac screenshot shortcuts" (which leads them to https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201361 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201361).
    - LocalPCGuy 4y ago
      That's fair, particularly the "Googling it" part. Still don't think it falls under "intuitive" - it's not something I'd just try or figure out without somehow looking it up.
      - CharlesW 4y ago
        For sure. I wonder if there’s a better solution short of a “Screenshot” key.
        TylerE 4y ago
        You meant Print Screen?
        CharlesW 4y ago
        Effectively, with a better name. This also strikes me a perfect use case for a Touch Bar since it’d be very helpful for a subset of users but wasted space for others.
  - hbn 4y ago
    How do you want them to inform you other than RTFM and word of mouth? Do you want constant buttons on screen at all times for every possible OS-level functionality?
    - LocalPCGuy 4y ago
      I didn't give any value judgement to it and I don't have any suggestions as I really haven't spent a lot of time on that problem space. If I become an OS developer I'll give that problem some thought. But the idea that Mac is somehow "intuitive" is laughable, IMO (I say that as someone who has used a wide variety of computer OSes since the 80s).
      - hbn 4y ago
        It's intuitive to do the basic stuff casual users need. If you want to go beyond that, you figure out how by doing some basic research. The OS isn't going to upload an entire reference manual into your brain as soon as you boot it for the first time.
        LocalPCGuy 4y ago
        And no one but you is claiming anything about manuals being beamed into brains. I disagree with the idea that MacOS is any more intuitive than any other modern OS (which is the claim that Apple and that I've heard others, make; I'm not saying you are making that claim necessarily). And to bring this back on point, to my very specific original comment, the poster I was responding too said this wasn't "hidden behind a keyboard shortcut" when it most definitely was. Not sure we need to delve into the nitty-gritty of how people learn OSes in this thread anymore than we have.
        marcellus23 4y ago
        > And to bring this back on point, to my very specific original comment, the poster I was responding too said this wasn't "hidden behind a keyboard shortcut" when it most definitely was I'm that original poster. The comment I responded to was clearly referring to holding "ctrl" in order to save to clipboard, not referring to the screenshot ability itself (which as others have mentioned, is not hidden behind a keyboard shortcut, but is an app in Applications/Utilities)
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    There’s also just an app you can launch like any other, and it works exactly the same way, no keyboard shortcuts necessary.
  - filoleg 4y ago
    > you have to be told or lookup CMD+Shift-5 before you can get to the full screenshot UI No, you don't. You can either search in Spotlight or go to Apps->Utilities, and it is there, along with activity monitor(aka task manager)/terminal/etc.
- wasyl 4y ago
  I agree with parent, for example even after pressing cmd+shift+5 there's no indicator or hint that you can press `space` to capture a single window. I don't see how any user would discover that functionality, and I regularly see people surprised they can do that here on HN. Discoverability on macos is atrocious, and even after few years on it I sometimes struggle with basic things
  - marcellus23 4y ago
    But there's a button for "Capture Selected Window".
eyelidlessness 4y ago
A great thing is that they’re very seldom not also in one of the app menus. Memorizing cmd + ? (Help menu search, sorta like Spotlight for the app and can find any standard menu items) is often a lot easier than remembering a bunch of other commands, and great for discovering them. Another great thing is they’re generally quite consistent across apps, so memorizing one is usually applicable system wide. And another great thing is that if you don’t like the defaults (or have a menu item you wish had a shortcut in the first place), they’re almost always configurable.
gcanyon 4y ago
There’s also the built-in Grab app that does this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grab_(software) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grab_(software)
jacobsenscott 4y ago
I've been using computers too long to be able to "see" them through the eyes of a new user. But being user-friendly doesn't mean making every single feature user friendly or discoverable through visual manipulation. It means making the most common tasks user friendly and discoverable. The vast majority of users can be productive on macos without ever using a single keyboard shortcut. I think macos does this better than pretty much any other desktop OS. Granted the bar isn't very high.
- pxc 4y ago
  > being user-friendly doesn't mean making every single feature user friendly or discoverable through [using the software] Why not? > The vast majority of users can be productive on macos without ever using a single keyboard shortcut. If you're not using keyboard shortcuts you definitely do not have flow. Again, why should the standard be so minimal ('can eventually complete a task') and not involve efficiency, fluidity, joy, mastery, etc.? It's not hard to do better when you leverage searches that simultaneously expose functionality and alternative ways to invoke it (e.g., keybinds, menu paths, app names, etc.). The example that blew my mind is Emacs with a nice fuzzy filtering search like you get pre-configured with Spacemacs or Doom, but macOS also has two great examples built in: Spotlight and the global app menu search.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  > The vast majority of users can be productive on macos without ever using a single keyboard shortcut. I'd be interested to know what portion of users use copy/paste.
  - jacobsenscott 4y ago
    Me too. I'm sure a lot, but I bet not all. But copy paste shortcuts can be discovered via direct ui manipulation - you click the edit menu and it shows the keyboard shortcuts. I actually copy/past with a right click nearly as often as with a keyboard shortcut. But I guess right click could be considered a "hidden" feature.
aldebran 4y ago
There’s literally a screenshot app that you can launch with 0 shortcuts needed.

by nsonha 4y ago

lelandfe 4y ago

/System/Applications/Utilities/Screenshot.app (the interface of which can also be reached via Cmd-Shift-5, allowing video recording and much more)

marcellus23 4y ago

It isn't hidden behind a keyboard shortcut. CMD+Shift+5 exposes the full screenshot UI, and under the clearly-named Options button is a menu that lets you pick the clipboard as the place to save. Holding CTRL is just a... well... "shortcut" for that.

nsonha 4y ago
I use the non-UI snapshot feature a lot more often than video capture so didn't realize that. I guess it was just a more general comment that comes from things like the switching window/app hotkeys. In this instance, there is another issue with finding out holding CTRL does what it does.
LocalPCGuy 4y ago
That is literally the definition of "hidden behind a keyboard shortcut" - you have to be told or lookup CMD+Shift-5 before you can get to the full screenshot UI. It's been a while since I first used MacOS, but I don't remember it telling me how to do that.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  > That is literally the definition of "hidden behind a keyboard shortcut" - you have to be told or lookup CMD+Shift-5 before you can get to the full screenshot UI. Or more likely, new users search for "screenshot" in Spotlight the first few times, and if they do this enough maybe Google "mac screenshot shortcuts" (which leads them to https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201361 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201361).
  - LocalPCGuy 4y ago
    That's fair, particularly the "Googling it" part. Still don't think it falls under "intuitive" - it's not something I'd just try or figure out without somehow looking it up.
    - CharlesW 4y ago
      For sure. I wonder if there’s a better solution short of a “Screenshot” key.
      - TylerE 4y ago
        You meant Print Screen?
        CharlesW 4y ago
        Effectively, with a better name. This also strikes me a perfect use case for a Touch Bar since it’d be very helpful for a subset of users but wasted space for others.
- hbn 4y ago
  How do you want them to inform you other than RTFM and word of mouth? Do you want constant buttons on screen at all times for every possible OS-level functionality?
  - LocalPCGuy 4y ago
    I didn't give any value judgement to it and I don't have any suggestions as I really haven't spent a lot of time on that problem space. If I become an OS developer I'll give that problem some thought. But the idea that Mac is somehow "intuitive" is laughable, IMO (I say that as someone who has used a wide variety of computer OSes since the 80s).
    - hbn 4y ago
      It's intuitive to do the basic stuff casual users need. If you want to go beyond that, you figure out how by doing some basic research. The OS isn't going to upload an entire reference manual into your brain as soon as you boot it for the first time.
      - LocalPCGuy 4y ago
        And no one but you is claiming anything about manuals being beamed into brains. I disagree with the idea that MacOS is any more intuitive than any other modern OS (which is the claim that Apple and that I've heard others, make; I'm not saying you are making that claim necessarily). And to bring this back on point, to my very specific original comment, the poster I was responding too said this wasn't "hidden behind a keyboard shortcut" when it most definitely was. Not sure we need to delve into the nitty-gritty of how people learn OSes in this thread anymore than we have.
        marcellus23 4y ago
        > And to bring this back on point, to my very specific original comment, the poster I was responding too said this wasn't "hidden behind a keyboard shortcut" when it most definitely was I'm that original poster. The comment I responded to was clearly referring to holding "ctrl" in order to save to clipboard, not referring to the screenshot ability itself (which as others have mentioned, is not hidden behind a keyboard shortcut, but is an app in Applications/Utilities)
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  There’s also just an app you can launch like any other, and it works exactly the same way, no keyboard shortcuts necessary.
- filoleg 4y ago
  > you have to be told or lookup CMD+Shift-5 before you can get to the full screenshot UI No, you don't. You can either search in Spotlight or go to Apps->Utilities, and it is there, along with activity monitor(aka task manager)/terminal/etc.
wasyl 4y ago
I agree with parent, for example even after pressing cmd+shift+5 there's no indicator or hint that you can press `space` to capture a single window. I don't see how any user would discover that functionality, and I regularly see people surprised they can do that here on HN. Discoverability on macos is atrocious, and even after few years on it I sometimes struggle with basic things
- marcellus23 4y ago
  But there's a button for "Capture Selected Window".

eyelidlessness 4y ago

A great thing is that they’re very seldom not also in one of the app menus. Memorizing cmd + ? (Help menu search, sorta like Spotlight for the app and can find any standard menu items) is often a lot easier than remembering a bunch of other commands, and great for discovering them. Another great thing is they’re generally quite consistent across apps, so memorizing one is usually applicable system wide. And another great thing is that if you don’t like the defaults (or have a menu item you wish had a shortcut in the first place), they’re almost always configurable.

gcanyon 4y ago

There’s also the built-in Grab app that does this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grab_(software) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grab_(software)

jacobsenscott 4y ago

I've been using computers too long to be able to "see" them through the eyes of a new user. But being user-friendly doesn't mean making every single feature user friendly or discoverable through visual manipulation. It means making the most common tasks user friendly and discoverable. The vast majority of users can be productive on macos without ever using a single keyboard shortcut. I think macos does this better than pretty much any other desktop OS. Granted the bar isn't very high.

pxc 4y ago
> being user-friendly doesn't mean making every single feature user friendly or discoverable through [using the software] Why not? > The vast majority of users can be productive on macos without ever using a single keyboard shortcut. If you're not using keyboard shortcuts you definitely do not have flow. Again, why should the standard be so minimal ('can eventually complete a task') and not involve efficiency, fluidity, joy, mastery, etc.? It's not hard to do better when you leverage searches that simultaneously expose functionality and alternative ways to invoke it (e.g., keybinds, menu paths, app names, etc.). The example that blew my mind is Emacs with a nice fuzzy filtering search like you get pre-configured with Spacemacs or Doom, but macOS also has two great examples built in: Spotlight and the global app menu search.
lostlogin 4y ago
> The vast majority of users can be productive on macos without ever using a single keyboard shortcut. I'd be interested to know what portion of users use copy/paste.
- jacobsenscott 4y ago
  Me too. I'm sure a lot, but I bet not all. But copy paste shortcuts can be discovered via direct ui manipulation - you click the edit menu and it shows the keyboard shortcuts. I actually copy/past with a right click nearly as often as with a keyboard shortcut. But I guess right click could be considered a "hidden" feature.

aldebran 4y ago

There’s literally a screenshot app that you can launch with 0 shortcuts needed.