5 ms·

I was a C++ dev in a past life and I have no particular fondness for Python (having used it for a couple of decades), and "friendliness" is a lot more than code

I was a C++ dev in a past life and I have no particular fondness for Python (having used it for a couple of decades), and "friendliness" is a lot more than code golf. It's also "being able to understand all of the features you encounter and their interactions" as well as "sane, standard build tooling" and "good debugability" and many other things that C++ lacks (unless something has changed recently).

TremendousJudge 4y ago
>unless something has changed recently No, it's even worse -- there are even MORE ways of doing the same thing now.
jb_s 4y ago
I delved into Python recently to work on some data science hobbies and a Chess program and it's frankly been fairly shit compared with other languages I use. Typescript (by way of comparison with other non-low-level languages) just feels far more solid wrt type system, type safety, tooling etc. C# (which I've used for years) is faster by orders of magnitude and IMO safer/easier to maintain.
- rocqua 4y ago
  I have found that Python with `mypy --strict` for type-checking is actually quite nicely typed.
gpderetta 4y ago
Python is a powerful yet beginner friendly language with a very gentle learning slope, but I would still take C++ tooling and debuggability any day over Python.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  Nah man, I've spent way too much time trying to piece together libraries to turn core dumps into a useful stack trace. Similarly, as miserable as Python package management is, at least it has a package manager that works with virtually every project in the ecosystem. I actually really like writing C++, but there are certain obstacles that slow a developer down tremendously--I could forgive them if they were interesting obstacles (e.g., I can at least amuse myself pacifying Rust's borrow checker), but there's no joy in trying to cobble together a build system with CMake/etc or try to get debug information for a segfault.
  - gpderetta 4y ago
    I won't spend any positive words on cmake (I'm a plain make fan), but... > or try to get debug information for a segfault what's the problem with opening the core dump with gdb and looking at the backtrace?
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      You need to provide all of the libraries referenced by the core dump (at the specific versions and compiled with debug symbols) to get gdb to produce a useful backtrace. It's been a decade since I've done professional C++ development, so I'm a bit foggy on the particulars.
      - jcelerier 4y ago
        we're in 2022, gdb asks me "can i download missing symbols from the internet" when it loads a binary and does it
        throwaway894345 4y ago
        Glad to hear the 2022 C++ ecosystem is finally catching up on some regards, but how does it know which version of those dependencies to download, and how does it download closed source symbols?
        jcelerier 4y ago
        I mean, if it's closed source you're not getting the debug symbols in any case lol, no matter which language. It uses debuginfod for fetching symbols - here it "just works".

TremendousJudge 4y ago

>unless something has changed recently No, it's even worse -- there are even MORE ways of doing the same thing now.

jb_s 4y ago

I delved into Python recently to work on some data science hobbies and a Chess program and it's frankly been fairly shit compared with other languages I use. Typescript (by way of comparison with other non-low-level languages) just feels far more solid wrt type system, type safety, tooling etc. C# (which I've used for years) is faster by orders of magnitude and IMO safer/easier to maintain.

rocqua 4y ago
I have found that Python with `mypy --strict` for type-checking is actually quite nicely typed.

gpderetta 4y ago

Python is a powerful yet beginner friendly language with a very gentle learning slope, but I would still take C++ tooling and debuggability any day over Python.

throwaway894345 4y ago
Nah man, I've spent way too much time trying to piece together libraries to turn core dumps into a useful stack trace. Similarly, as miserable as Python package management is, at least it has a package manager that works with virtually every project in the ecosystem. I actually really like writing C++, but there are certain obstacles that slow a developer down tremendously--I could forgive them if they were interesting obstacles (e.g., I can at least amuse myself pacifying Rust's borrow checker), but there's no joy in trying to cobble together a build system with CMake/etc or try to get debug information for a segfault.
- gpderetta 4y ago
  I won't spend any positive words on cmake (I'm a plain make fan), but... > or try to get debug information for a segfault what's the problem with opening the core dump with gdb and looking at the backtrace?
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    You need to provide all of the libraries referenced by the core dump (at the specific versions and compiled with debug symbols) to get gdb to produce a useful backtrace. It's been a decade since I've done professional C++ development, so I'm a bit foggy on the particulars.
    - jcelerier 4y ago
      we're in 2022, gdb asks me "can i download missing symbols from the internet" when it loads a binary and does it
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        Glad to hear the 2022 C++ ecosystem is finally catching up on some regards, but how does it know which version of those dependencies to download, and how does it download closed source symbols?
        jcelerier 4y ago
        I mean, if it's closed source you're not getting the debug symbols in any case lol, no matter which language. It uses debuginfod for fetching symbols - here it "just works".