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> Religion is a private matter you practice however you please as long as you harm noone I think the chinese make this argument in Xinjiang much more convincin

> Religion is a private matter you practice however you please as long as you harm noone I think the chinese make this argument in Xinjiang much more convincingly, after all, unlike the french, they do not have large, bell-ringing churches and cathedrals in the centers of literally every settlement, all of which are blazoned with symbols of the faith. It's also the argument they make in Germany, where you're not allowed to have religious symbols in public offices, but they still manage to have a crucifix behind every blade of grass, public or otherwise, in Bavaria. The other problem with the hijab ban is that modesty (which is what hijab means) makes no sense in private. So it ends up making women choose between their religious self-expression, and taking part of public life. I'm sure that some muslim women are oppressed by some muslim men, but I can say for certain that every muslim woman, whether they wear the headscarf or not, is oppressed by having this choice taken out of their hands. I love the french universalist tradition, but it feels like mobilizing that in order to restrict the freedoms of a relatively poor and disenfranchised minority is a shameful betrayal. I would find it credible if there was also a general crucifix ban, and the French state, as the soviets did, was turning churches into community centers or tearing them down. Since no such idea is even proposed, it just seems like yet another classic of the european tradition: abstract equality, concrete discrimination.

Viliam1234 4y ago
> I can say for certain that every muslim woman, whether they wear the headscarf or not, is oppressed by having this choice taken out of their hands. Game theory is complicated. Sometimes having a choice taken away from you is good for you... for example if it is a choice you never really wanted to take, but your environment would punish you for avoiding it voluntarily. When the choice is taken away, the punishment would not make sense. Children do not choose their religion; it is chosen for them, and sometimes the punishment for breaking the rules or trying to leave the religion is death. I am pretty sure there are girls born in muslim families, who are happy for the opportunity to feel the fresh air.
- pasabagi 4y ago
  Alternatively, literally every white woman I know has told me they find the pressure to appear presentable, to look in a certain way, oppressive and stressful. We live in a society that makes it easy for men to oppress women, in public or in private. Tackling domestic violence, exclusion of women from public spaces, women's wages, would make it much easier for women pressured by families or husbands to take the freedoms that are actually important to them, which may or may not include choices about head wear.
  - Viliam1234 4y ago
    > Alternatively, literally every white woman I know has told me they find the pressure to appear presentable, to look in a certain way, oppressive and stressful. Yes, it is oppressive and stressful, but the stakes are dramatically different, and so is the reason -- intrasexual competition. In case of covering your face for religious reasons, the penalty for disobeying, in worst case, is death. Specifically, a murder, usually by your relatives, for reasons that are typically translated to English as "honor", although the meaning clearly is not the same. A white woman who refuses to use make-up, will miss some opportunities in her life. Another woman will take the partner she wanted, or the promotion she deserved. She may get bullied by other women, especially at high school. Those all are impacts that reduce her quality of life. But how is it related to domestic violence? I have never heard a serious suggestion that the real cause of domestic violence is lack of being presentable. Similarly, what are the public spaces that exclude insufficiently presentable white women: streets? parks? cinemas? universities? trains? Okay, I am sure there are some parties where only the pretty girls are invited, but those probably exclude most men, too. Anyway, I think that "you may be skipped for a promotion" and "someone quite likely will slit your throat" are not the same category of threat. Both can feel oppressive and stressful, but I am sure way more women would trade their problems in one direction than in the other.
    - pasabagi 4y ago
      My observation is that, in households where sexism is a real problem, the public-facing stuff isn't likely to be the meat of it. Nobody who has a husband who might murder them considers religious attire as the worst thing about their relationship. The worst thing is having a husband who is controlling and homicidal. The point is, both muslim and non-muslim women face that in most countries around the world, because most countries are systematically patriarchal and domestic violence is largely normalized. In every country in europe, domestic violence makes up the vast majority of violent crime, and murders are most likely, especially for women, to be committed by family members. So by focusing on the hijab and the makeup thing, you're missing my broader point: that muslim women face oppression as women, and not as muslims, except insofar as they are the targets of racial discrimination. The mechanisms that allow partners to coerce muslim women are the same as those that allow partners to exercise coercive power over white women.

Viliam1234 4y ago

> I can say for certain that every muslim woman, whether they wear the headscarf or not, is oppressed by having this choice taken out of their hands. Game theory is complicated. Sometimes having a choice taken away from you is good for you... for example if it is a choice you never really wanted to take, but your environment would punish you for avoiding it voluntarily. When the choice is taken away, the punishment would not make sense. Children do not choose their religion; it is chosen for them, and sometimes the punishment for breaking the rules or trying to leave the religion is death. I am pretty sure there are girls born in muslim families, who are happy for the opportunity to feel the fresh air.

pasabagi 4y ago
Alternatively, literally every white woman I know has told me they find the pressure to appear presentable, to look in a certain way, oppressive and stressful. We live in a society that makes it easy for men to oppress women, in public or in private. Tackling domestic violence, exclusion of women from public spaces, women's wages, would make it much easier for women pressured by families or husbands to take the freedoms that are actually important to them, which may or may not include choices about head wear.
- Viliam1234 4y ago
  > Alternatively, literally every white woman I know has told me they find the pressure to appear presentable, to look in a certain way, oppressive and stressful. Yes, it is oppressive and stressful, but the stakes are dramatically different, and so is the reason -- intrasexual competition. In case of covering your face for religious reasons, the penalty for disobeying, in worst case, is death. Specifically, a murder, usually by your relatives, for reasons that are typically translated to English as "honor", although the meaning clearly is not the same. A white woman who refuses to use make-up, will miss some opportunities in her life. Another woman will take the partner she wanted, or the promotion she deserved. She may get bullied by other women, especially at high school. Those all are impacts that reduce her quality of life. But how is it related to domestic violence? I have never heard a serious suggestion that the real cause of domestic violence is lack of being presentable. Similarly, what are the public spaces that exclude insufficiently presentable white women: streets? parks? cinemas? universities? trains? Okay, I am sure there are some parties where only the pretty girls are invited, but those probably exclude most men, too. Anyway, I think that "you may be skipped for a promotion" and "someone quite likely will slit your throat" are not the same category of threat. Both can feel oppressive and stressful, but I am sure way more women would trade their problems in one direction than in the other.
  - pasabagi 4y ago
    My observation is that, in households where sexism is a real problem, the public-facing stuff isn't likely to be the meat of it. Nobody who has a husband who might murder them considers religious attire as the worst thing about their relationship. The worst thing is having a husband who is controlling and homicidal. The point is, both muslim and non-muslim women face that in most countries around the world, because most countries are systematically patriarchal and domestic violence is largely normalized. In every country in europe, domestic violence makes up the vast majority of violent crime, and murders are most likely, especially for women, to be committed by family members. So by focusing on the hijab and the makeup thing, you're missing my broader point: that muslim women face oppression as women, and not as muslims, except insofar as they are the targets of racial discrimination. The mechanisms that allow partners to coerce muslim women are the same as those that allow partners to exercise coercive power over white women.