3 ms·

Ah I see, doctors aren't supposed to work for free, just other taxpayers (who most likely make far less than a doctor) working for free to pay the (much higher

Ah I see, doctors aren't supposed to work for free, just other taxpayers (who most likely make far less than a doctor) working for free to pay the (much higher salary) to cover someone elses expenses. Got it.

Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
My tax money goes to schools that I don't send children to. My tax money goes to building roads that I won't drive on. My tax money goes to police dealing with crimes I'm not a victim of. Do you consider EVERYTHING funded by tax payers to be the result of people "work for free to cover someone else's expenses"?
- notch656a 4y ago
  I'm opposed to tax funded police, roads, and schools. If you want to create a roads charity, by all mean I'm fine with that. Sometimes tax payers are funding their own expense, sometimes not. What I take issue with is being involuntarily compelled to pay someone else's expense at gunpoint.
  - SigmundA 4y ago
    Nobody is forcing you to pay at gunpoint, you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. Paying taxes is no different than mortgage or rent, either pay it or get out. You don't fully own the property you live on even if it's paid off, it is the soil of the country you live in, if you want your own soil fight for your own sovereign territory and keep it through force without any help, good luck.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      >Nobody is forcing you to pay at gunpoint, you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. OK so if a robber comes to my house and says pay up or leave, then that's not a forceful action at gunpoint? >you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. That's not how it works -- allow me to inform you of tax law in the US. US Citizens are responsible for filing, and possibly paying taxes on income earned ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. The US, and I believe Eritrea, are the only two nation's I'm aware of in the world like that. Now you could renounce citizenship, but even then that wouldn't satisfy your condition of "no longer pay" because you even have to pay over $2000 just to renounce citizenship, and that has to be done outside of the US. The US has been known to engage in "extraordinary rendition" which is to say they target/extract citizens even out of countries when there is no legal mechanism for them to do so. In short your claim here is incredibly innacurate. >Paying taxes is no different than mortgage or rent When I pay rent/mortgage it's for my own use of property in a private contract, in a voluntary exchange. Tax is an involuntary transaction. A very different thing. >, if you want your own soil fight for your own sovereign territory and keep it through force without any help, good luck. You start off saying nobody is forcing this at gunpoint but then you go on to challenge me to "keep it through force." You're starting to look like a violent person. It's really comical how quickly the façade drops of persons such as yourself who turn out to be persons of great violence who are quick to challenge others to engage in such activity.
      - SigmundA 4y ago
        >OK so if a robber comes to my house and says pay up or leave, then that's not a forceful action at gunpoint? They are not a robber they are a landlord, you are on their land, pay taxes or leave your choice. They are not forcing you to stay and work and pay taxes at gunpoint, you have the choice to leave. However while you are there you must fund the services they are currently providing to you, if you willfully evade that payment then you are committing a crime, but you have the option not to, you always have choice. >That's not how it works -- allow me to inform you of tax law in the US. US Citizens are responsible for filing, and possibly paying taxes on income earned ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. Most standard income is covered under FEIE and FTC, that is you won't pay taxes twice if your paying taxes in another country utilizing their social service instead and if you have been truly living in working for almost a full year you pay no tax on the income. Note since you are US citizen you still benefit from their social service while living abroad, the are many protections upheld to US citizens traveling abroad you would no longer have if you renounce. >Now you could renounce citizenship, but even then that wouldn't satisfy your condition of "no longer pay" because you even have to pay over $2000 just to renounce citizenship, and that has to be done outside of the US. Exactly, you must pay your final rent payment and get out, no one is forcing you to stay. If you don't have the money to pay then you are not making income to pay taxes either. >When I pay rent/mortgage it's for my own use of property in a private contract, in a voluntary exchange. Tax is an involuntary transaction. A very different thing. You have agreed to the social contract [1], you are voluntarily staying in the country and utilizing the social services and resources (military and police protection, roads, public spaces etc.) to make money and live safely and productively. No one is forcing you to stay, there are places in this world that do not tax you for police and schools. >You start off saying nobody is forcing this at gunpoint but then you go on to challenge me to "keep it through force." That's the point, the reason you don't have to defend your property and life through force on a daily basis is because you have voluntarily agreed to live in a country that has the monopoly on violence [2] and in exchange for the social service of military and police protection you must pay taxes if you profit from that protection. People are social animals, they work together to solve problems no individual could on their own, money facilitates this and is needed to fund the large social framework you live under hence taxes. If government disappeared tomorrow, it's would be reformed quickly in not so pleasant ways. You may not like it but that doesn't matter because others will form large groups and impose it on you regardless and you will have no choice over its form. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    Ah, there it is. The actual argument you wanted to make is the whole "taxation is theft" baloney. I don't waste my time talking to people with that excessively naive viewpoint. Have a good day.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      What's "excessively naive" is to act like you're not suggesting people work for free, when indeed you are. You're simply performing a sleight of hand: instead of framing it as the doctor working for free, you shift the free labor onto mostly people making a lesser income. You sir/mam, are both deceptive and disingenuous. >The actual argument you wanted to make And how incredibly good faith of you to bring up taxation of roads, school, and police and then have the gall to act like it's a waste to discuss the very subject YOU YOURSELF INTRODUCED. My brother, I did not mention anything about the taxation of roads/police/schools until you brought it up, it's beginning to look like that's the real argument YOU wanted to introduce.

Sohcahtoa82 4y ago

My tax money goes to schools that I don't send children to. My tax money goes to building roads that I won't drive on. My tax money goes to police dealing with crimes I'm not a victim of. Do you consider EVERYTHING funded by tax payers to be the result of people "work for free to cover someone else's expenses"?

notch656a 4y ago
I'm opposed to tax funded police, roads, and schools. If you want to create a roads charity, by all mean I'm fine with that. Sometimes tax payers are funding their own expense, sometimes not. What I take issue with is being involuntarily compelled to pay someone else's expense at gunpoint.
- SigmundA 4y ago
  Nobody is forcing you to pay at gunpoint, you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. Paying taxes is no different than mortgage or rent, either pay it or get out. You don't fully own the property you live on even if it's paid off, it is the soil of the country you live in, if you want your own soil fight for your own sovereign territory and keep it through force without any help, good luck.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    >Nobody is forcing you to pay at gunpoint, you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. OK so if a robber comes to my house and says pay up or leave, then that's not a forceful action at gunpoint? >you are free to leave at any time and no longer pay. That's not how it works -- allow me to inform you of tax law in the US. US Citizens are responsible for filing, and possibly paying taxes on income earned ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. The US, and I believe Eritrea, are the only two nation's I'm aware of in the world like that. Now you could renounce citizenship, but even then that wouldn't satisfy your condition of "no longer pay" because you even have to pay over $2000 just to renounce citizenship, and that has to be done outside of the US. The US has been known to engage in "extraordinary rendition" which is to say they target/extract citizens even out of countries when there is no legal mechanism for them to do so. In short your claim here is incredibly innacurate. >Paying taxes is no different than mortgage or rent When I pay rent/mortgage it's for my own use of property in a private contract, in a voluntary exchange. Tax is an involuntary transaction. A very different thing. >, if you want your own soil fight for your own sovereign territory and keep it through force without any help, good luck. You start off saying nobody is forcing this at gunpoint but then you go on to challenge me to "keep it through force." You're starting to look like a violent person. It's really comical how quickly the façade drops of persons such as yourself who turn out to be persons of great violence who are quick to challenge others to engage in such activity.
    - SigmundA 4y ago
      >OK so if a robber comes to my house and says pay up or leave, then that's not a forceful action at gunpoint? They are not a robber they are a landlord, you are on their land, pay taxes or leave your choice. They are not forcing you to stay and work and pay taxes at gunpoint, you have the choice to leave. However while you are there you must fund the services they are currently providing to you, if you willfully evade that payment then you are committing a crime, but you have the option not to, you always have choice. >That's not how it works -- allow me to inform you of tax law in the US. US Citizens are responsible for filing, and possibly paying taxes on income earned ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. Most standard income is covered under FEIE and FTC, that is you won't pay taxes twice if your paying taxes in another country utilizing their social service instead and if you have been truly living in working for almost a full year you pay no tax on the income. Note since you are US citizen you still benefit from their social service while living abroad, the are many protections upheld to US citizens traveling abroad you would no longer have if you renounce. >Now you could renounce citizenship, but even then that wouldn't satisfy your condition of "no longer pay" because you even have to pay over $2000 just to renounce citizenship, and that has to be done outside of the US. Exactly, you must pay your final rent payment and get out, no one is forcing you to stay. If you don't have the money to pay then you are not making income to pay taxes either. >When I pay rent/mortgage it's for my own use of property in a private contract, in a voluntary exchange. Tax is an involuntary transaction. A very different thing. You have agreed to the social contract [1], you are voluntarily staying in the country and utilizing the social services and resources (military and police protection, roads, public spaces etc.) to make money and live safely and productively. No one is forcing you to stay, there are places in this world that do not tax you for police and schools. >You start off saying nobody is forcing this at gunpoint but then you go on to challenge me to "keep it through force." That's the point, the reason you don't have to defend your property and life through force on a daily basis is because you have voluntarily agreed to live in a country that has the monopoly on violence [2] and in exchange for the social service of military and police protection you must pay taxes if you profit from that protection. People are social animals, they work together to solve problems no individual could on their own, money facilitates this and is needed to fund the large social framework you live under hence taxes. If government disappeared tomorrow, it's would be reformed quickly in not so pleasant ways. You may not like it but that doesn't matter because others will form large groups and impose it on you regardless and you will have no choice over its form. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  Ah, there it is. The actual argument you wanted to make is the whole "taxation is theft" baloney. I don't waste my time talking to people with that excessively naive viewpoint. Have a good day.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    What's "excessively naive" is to act like you're not suggesting people work for free, when indeed you are. You're simply performing a sleight of hand: instead of framing it as the doctor working for free, you shift the free labor onto mostly people making a lesser income. You sir/mam, are both deceptive and disingenuous. >The actual argument you wanted to make And how incredibly good faith of you to bring up taxation of roads, school, and police and then have the gall to act like it's a waste to discuss the very subject YOU YOURSELF INTRODUCED. My brother, I did not mention anything about the taxation of roads/police/schools until you brought it up, it's beginning to look like that's the real argument YOU wanted to introduce.