6 ms·

Surprisingly I find linux quite guilty of the neverending gui papercut too (it's a bazaar after all). Sadly Microsoft is kinda forced to follow the trends, eve

Surprisingly I find linux quite guilty of the neverending gui papercut too (it's a bazaar after all). Sadly Microsoft is kinda forced to follow the trends, everything moves in all direction (web, phones).

PaulHoule 4y ago
The first thing I do with a Linux install is uninstall X windows. I remember being excited when I saw the first beta test of KDE but it seemed each version got a little bit worse after that and that's been the trajectory of the Linux desktop since 1995 or so.
- agumonkey 4y ago
  I don't mind X, but I push i3 or xfce and nothing more. I tried bare console linux but there were too many keyboard mapping fu and a few web browsing facility I didn't bother to lose.
- emptysongglass 4y ago
  How do you surf the web or use GUI programs?
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    I don't. I surf the web and use GUI programs on Windows or Mac OS. I have a Linux server that runs Jellyfin and my IoT devices. awk, grep, tail, nginx and all that kind of stuff is fine. (I tried taking the 1050 card from my media server I used for AI training long ago and put it in another cheap Linux box and put SteamOS on it. They claim it can run Windows games but it won't run anything out of my steam account including the games that the proton database claims works. That's the kind of brokenness as the expected condition that is endemic to the Linux GUI) If I found a GUI app worked on Linux I'd be so surprised I'd have to file a feature report with their feature tracker.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - deadbunny 4y ago
      No offense intended but it sounds like you don't know what you're doing. Xorg has worked for decades, a multitude of window managers and desktop environments have been perfectly usable for decades, and a couple of million people (going by Steam HW survey results) seem to be able to run games via proton perfectly fine.
    - medeshago 4y ago
      Do you realize that even if the marketshare for desktop linux is minimal, let's assume 0.5%, those are still millions of computers working using what you claim doesn't work under any condition?
      - rawoke083600 4y ago
        Good take ! Reminds me of that saying. "If one person tells you, you have tail ignore it, if many ppl tell you, you have a tail... look behind you" :P
    - vinceguidry 4y ago
      Did you enable Proton in Steam? It's not turned on by default, though I believe that at this point they probably should. It's handled everything I've wanted to run on it.
      - philliphaydon 4y ago
        Yeah, by default Steam only runs games that are made for Linux, you need to enable Proton to open up support for Windows games and use the ProtonDB to figure out the overall support for those games. Alot work flawlessly, some have known issues, and some flatout wont work, usually because of some anti-cheat software.
    - Nursie 4y ago
      I think at this stage in the game, if you can't use a linux desktop but consider yourself to be 'in tech' in any way, the problem is probably you. Doesn't mean you have to think it's perfect, doesn't mean you have to use it for everything, but 'can't use any GUI app on linux' is definitely a you problem.
- rawoke083600 4y ago
  Asking for a friend: "Is text-p0rn a thing ?"
VyseofArcadia 4y ago
> Sadly Microsoft is kinda forced to follow the trends, everything moves in all direction (web, phones). Former Microsoftie here. While they are following trends, the actual impetus behind all the little changes you see all the time is that managers and ICs are incentivized to make "impactful" changes if they want good performance reviews. UI changes are a pretty easy way to have "impact". You can say something in your review like, "and X million users used the new taskbar that's in the middle of the screen".
- indrora 4y ago
  This fucking reeks of Pressure to Publish in academia.
  - enriquto 4y ago
    Except that publishing stupid papers does not harm millions of users, but yes.
    - paraph1n 4y ago
      It harms thousands of researchers who read them and base their further research upon.
      - pgcj_poster 4y ago
        The average paper only gets one citation.
        ibz 4y ago
        If the average type of paper deviates over time, it doesn't matter whether the average number of citations is low - the type (direction) of research that gets cited shifts as well, and ultimately the direction of all research done shifts.
  - agumonkey 4y ago
    I don't understand how this scheme (in companies or academia) manages to emerge and sustain everywhere.. surely there's an answer but I don't know it.
eikenberry 4y ago
You have your choice with Linux where you don't get a choice with proprietary OSes. If you build your desktop from parts you get to keep it as long as you like. I used the same desktop, mostly unchanged for 15 years on Linux without problem. It was basic, Openbox, gkrellm (later conky), xbindkeys, etc. Never had to worry about it changing as Openbox was basically done and the other parts were mostly done as well. Only had to mess with it when I wanted to. Linux (and FLOSS in general) gives you the choice to have it the way you want it.
- agumonkey 4y ago
  is it true ? if XFCE decides to do things I don't like I may not be able to manage a fork
  - prmoustache 4y ago
    It only depends on motivation and time dedication. Anyone can be a developer. Also if you go past the 3 main desktops there are many many window managers, standalone launchers, panels from which you can pick up the pieces you want to build something you like.
  - bb010g 4y ago
    https://www.trinitydesktop.org/ https://www.trinitydesktop.org/ is an example of the community maintaining a continuation of KDE 3.
  - eikenberry 4y ago
    XFCE is a integrated desktop. You are choosing the desktop and what comes with it, including how the developers decide to change it. If you want control start with a window manager or a window manager like compositor for wayland and build your desktop from there. There are non-desktop versions of pretty much everything you need (notification daemons, keybinding, etc.).
- lmm 4y ago
  Not in these days of systemd and tight integration between everything. Want to fork your window manager? Well you'd better keep it up to date with the graphics server, which needs to stay up to date with the device manager, which needs to stay up to date with the kernel, which needs to stay up to date with... you've pretty much got to either fork the whole OS or live with whatever the big contributors are doing.

PaulHoule 4y ago

The first thing I do with a Linux install is uninstall X windows. I remember being excited when I saw the first beta test of KDE but it seemed each version got a little bit worse after that and that's been the trajectory of the Linux desktop since 1995 or so.

agumonkey 4y ago
I don't mind X, but I push i3 or xfce and nothing more. I tried bare console linux but there were too many keyboard mapping fu and a few web browsing facility I didn't bother to lose.
emptysongglass 4y ago
How do you surf the web or use GUI programs?
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  I don't. I surf the web and use GUI programs on Windows or Mac OS. I have a Linux server that runs Jellyfin and my IoT devices. awk, grep, tail, nginx and all that kind of stuff is fine. (I tried taking the 1050 card from my media server I used for AI training long ago and put it in another cheap Linux box and put SteamOS on it. They claim it can run Windows games but it won't run anything out of my steam account including the games that the proton database claims works. That's the kind of brokenness as the expected condition that is endemic to the Linux GUI) If I found a GUI app worked on Linux I'd be so surprised I'd have to file a feature report with their feature tracker.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - deadbunny 4y ago
    No offense intended but it sounds like you don't know what you're doing. Xorg has worked for decades, a multitude of window managers and desktop environments have been perfectly usable for decades, and a couple of million people (going by Steam HW survey results) seem to be able to run games via proton perfectly fine.
  - medeshago 4y ago
    Do you realize that even if the marketshare for desktop linux is minimal, let's assume 0.5%, those are still millions of computers working using what you claim doesn't work under any condition?
    - rawoke083600 4y ago
      Good take ! Reminds me of that saying. "If one person tells you, you have tail ignore it, if many ppl tell you, you have a tail... look behind you" :P
  - vinceguidry 4y ago
    Did you enable Proton in Steam? It's not turned on by default, though I believe that at this point they probably should. It's handled everything I've wanted to run on it.
    - philliphaydon 4y ago
      Yeah, by default Steam only runs games that are made for Linux, you need to enable Proton to open up support for Windows games and use the ProtonDB to figure out the overall support for those games. Alot work flawlessly, some have known issues, and some flatout wont work, usually because of some anti-cheat software.
  - Nursie 4y ago
    I think at this stage in the game, if you can't use a linux desktop but consider yourself to be 'in tech' in any way, the problem is probably you. Doesn't mean you have to think it's perfect, doesn't mean you have to use it for everything, but 'can't use any GUI app on linux' is definitely a you problem.
rawoke083600 4y ago
Asking for a friend: "Is text-p0rn a thing ?"

VyseofArcadia 4y ago

> Sadly Microsoft is kinda forced to follow the trends, everything moves in all direction (web, phones). Former Microsoftie here. While they are following trends, the actual impetus behind all the little changes you see all the time is that managers and ICs are incentivized to make "impactful" changes if they want good performance reviews. UI changes are a pretty easy way to have "impact". You can say something in your review like, "and X million users used the new taskbar that's in the middle of the screen".

indrora 4y ago
This fucking reeks of Pressure to Publish in academia.
- enriquto 4y ago
  Except that publishing stupid papers does not harm millions of users, but yes.
  - paraph1n 4y ago
    It harms thousands of researchers who read them and base their further research upon.
    - pgcj_poster 4y ago
      The average paper only gets one citation.
      - ibz 4y ago
        If the average type of paper deviates over time, it doesn't matter whether the average number of citations is low - the type (direction) of research that gets cited shifts as well, and ultimately the direction of all research done shifts.
- agumonkey 4y ago
  I don't understand how this scheme (in companies or academia) manages to emerge and sustain everywhere.. surely there's an answer but I don't know it.

eikenberry 4y ago

You have your choice with Linux where you don't get a choice with proprietary OSes. If you build your desktop from parts you get to keep it as long as you like. I used the same desktop, mostly unchanged for 15 years on Linux without problem. It was basic, Openbox, gkrellm (later conky), xbindkeys, etc. Never had to worry about it changing as Openbox was basically done and the other parts were mostly done as well. Only had to mess with it when I wanted to. Linux (and FLOSS in general) gives you the choice to have it the way you want it.

agumonkey 4y ago
is it true ? if XFCE decides to do things I don't like I may not be able to manage a fork
- prmoustache 4y ago
  It only depends on motivation and time dedication. Anyone can be a developer. Also if you go past the 3 main desktops there are many many window managers, standalone launchers, panels from which you can pick up the pieces you want to build something you like.
- bb010g 4y ago
  https://www.trinitydesktop.org/ https://www.trinitydesktop.org/ is an example of the community maintaining a continuation of KDE 3.
- eikenberry 4y ago
  XFCE is a integrated desktop. You are choosing the desktop and what comes with it, including how the developers decide to change it. If you want control start with a window manager or a window manager like compositor for wayland and build your desktop from there. There are non-desktop versions of pretty much everything you need (notification daemons, keybinding, etc.).
lmm 4y ago
Not in these days of systemd and tight integration between everything. Want to fork your window manager? Well you'd better keep it up to date with the graphics server, which needs to stay up to date with the device manager, which needs to stay up to date with the kernel, which needs to stay up to date with... you've pretty much got to either fork the whole OS or live with whatever the big contributors are doing.