6 ms·

Because I taught a piece of Rhode Island’s occupational licensing insanity in my microeconomics class, I’d encourage someone to look up how long Rhode Island sp

Because I taught a piece of Rhode Island’s occupational licensing insanity in my microeconomics class, I’d encourage someone to look up how long Rhode Island spends training its police officers by comparison. I don’t have the figure in front of me but it is A LOT less. Maybe 400 hours?

Hamuko 4y ago
Is there any place in the US where they actually do comprehensive training of police officers? Because here the police officers need to take a three-year program in a vocational university.
- gensym 4y ago
  In Chicago there is a multi-month training program, and they are on a probational period for their first year.
- mindslight 4y ago
  Focusing on training is pointless when the incentives are set up wrong. Hold police officers accountable under the laws they purport to uphold (eg the ones against second degree and third degree murder), and they'll stop immediately reaching for their suspect-stopping remote control. Otherwise training is mainly a lesson in what to say to justify themselves afterwards.
  - ryanmcbride 4y ago
    Yup, for as long as cops have a license to kill as long as they remember to say "I was a scared little baby, the bad man was very scawy" the training just doesn't matter. They'll just keep killing until they face consequences.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      And then when it’s actually time to “protect and serve” and stop a gunman in a school, they don’t go in because “they are afraid to get shot”
    - sam345 4y ago
      Uncharitable and inaccurate comment. Most police officers do a good job and risk their lives and livelihood enforcing the rule of law. Disparaging a profession because of a few highly publicized bad apples is causing police forces to stand down and violent crime to rise. Comments like this are fueling the defund the police movement and are why many cities are revisiting the crime waves of the 70s and 80s.
      - mindslight 4y ago
        If you want to get to the truth of a matter, you need to hold conflicting thoughts in your head at the same time. Most cops are doing a good job, and most people they interact with are criminals. The system allows all of their priors to run amok, unjustly harming everyone they interact with. The system/union protects the bad apples that go even further, who spoil the bunch and gives the profession a bad image. By holding one side blameless, you are contributing to the ongoing destruction of the institution. If you're truly interested in law and order, you should focus on the current lack of law and order for the people tasked with upholding it. As for the actual recent "crime waves", that is being debated to death elsewhere. Like everything, it's some of column A and some of column B and the partisan narratives distract rather than enlighten.
  - bumby 4y ago
    How would you characterize their current incentives?
    - giantg2 4y ago
      The real negative I've seen is the culture. Backing up your brother is more important than doing what is right. Racist or dehumanizing banter can be rampant in some departments too. The incentive is that they want to be part of the "in" group and not ostracized, or worse.
    - mindslight 4y ago
      Police are effectively unbound by the laws they claim to uphold - unless the case is egregious, there is an extreme amount of public outrage, and the DA has a spine. As the damage they cause is attributed to "the state" rather than their personal decisions, they have little incentive to keep that damage to a minimum. Essentially, for any situation involving "the police" you should be asking yourself what would happen to a non-police citizen who did the same thing.
      - bumby 4y ago
        You've outlined the lack of a negative incentive (the lack of accountability) but I was asking more about the positive incentive. I.e., what is there incentive for doing the things society doesn't want them to do? E.g., if the IRS doesn't hold me accountable, there is no negative incentive to stop me from cheating on my taxes. However, I may still pay my taxes because I have a positive incentive to fund social programs I value.
        mindslight 4y ago
        It's selfishly safer to use deadly force on someone that might possibly defend themselves, and it's easier to shoot someone who may run away rather than having to chase. Take a look at footage from countries where the police don't carry guns to see the type of physical work American police are shirking.
- RobertRoberts 4y ago
  In Minnesota (where so many bad police related things have happened in the past few years) you need a college degree and then police training on top of that. https://dps.mn.gov/entity/post/becoming-a-peace-officer/Pages/Routes-to-Peace-Officer-Licensure.aspx https://dps.mn.gov/entity/post/becoming-a-peace-officer/Page...
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Or 5 years experience in another location.
  - Darrengineer 4y ago
    Just so everyone's aware 'college degree' here is expansive including two-year (community/vocational/technical/etc) colleges. I know many people who went to Ridgewater College (a college locally known having low standards and keeping the high school party going) specifically for a degree 'law enforcement'. Highlights include supervised taser use on each other (which probably aids in a mentality of assuming they know how the experience translates to others and underestimating risk) ETA: per the link, the degree requirement isn't applicable to those with prior experience and having been working in police sometime in the prior six years
- chipsa 4y ago
  3 years of bad training isn't going to actually help.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  Some areas prefer or require undergraduate degrees, but those can often be bypassed with experience in a location with less stringent entry requirements. The requirements are all over the place. In my location (suburban DC), the posted requirements aren't all that high (21 years old, high school completion), but it's a competitive county (high income, relatively low crime, reasonable pay) so the majority of applicants are either college graduates OR ex-military.
- R0b0t1 4y ago
  Better training is required, not longer training. A degree program is not the answer for everything.
- giantg2 4y ago
  "Is there any place in the US where they actually do comprehensive training of police officers?" What do you mean by comprehensive training? I think most states do require that, depending on the definition.
- hourago 4y ago
  > Because here the police officers need to take a three-year program in a vocational university. Maybe an stupid question, but where is "here"? I missed that.
Spooky23 4y ago
In NY, local police departments require a minimum of 700 hours of training to be certified. IIRC, state troopers are like 1200. Like most of these things, the headline is probably misleading. You probably spend most of the 1500 hours as an apprentice.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  The article states that an apprentice option is an alternative to 1500hrs of classes.
  - happyopossum 4y ago
    An alternative that still requires 10000 hours of classroom time, plus 840 hours of apprenticeship time. at 40 hrs/week that's 46 weeks - basically an entire year. To cut hair.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      Yeah, I agree it is dumb
    - dahfizz 4y ago
      The article says you can work as an apprentice for 2 full years, OR do 1,000 hours in a classroom + 840 hours as an apprentice. It doesn't sound like that bad of a gig. You can start earning a living wage right out of high school, with a guaranteed promotion into a middle class lifestyle within two years. By that time, your college going peers will be deep in debt and still two years away from a real paycheck.
    - Barrin92 4y ago
      > To cut hair Not sure the dismissive tone is warranted. It's a craft that requires skill and training. Here in Germany it's a full vocational program that generally takes three years. You can only learn so much in a year and just like in any other profession after a year you're still going to be a beginner.

Hamuko 4y ago

Is there any place in the US where they actually do comprehensive training of police officers? Because here the police officers need to take a three-year program in a vocational university.

gensym 4y ago
In Chicago there is a multi-month training program, and they are on a probational period for their first year.
mindslight 4y ago
Focusing on training is pointless when the incentives are set up wrong. Hold police officers accountable under the laws they purport to uphold (eg the ones against second degree and third degree murder), and they'll stop immediately reaching for their suspect-stopping remote control. Otherwise training is mainly a lesson in what to say to justify themselves afterwards.
- ryanmcbride 4y ago
  Yup, for as long as cops have a license to kill as long as they remember to say "I was a scared little baby, the bad man was very scawy" the training just doesn't matter. They'll just keep killing until they face consequences.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    And then when it’s actually time to “protect and serve” and stop a gunman in a school, they don’t go in because “they are afraid to get shot”
  - sam345 4y ago
    Uncharitable and inaccurate comment. Most police officers do a good job and risk their lives and livelihood enforcing the rule of law. Disparaging a profession because of a few highly publicized bad apples is causing police forces to stand down and violent crime to rise. Comments like this are fueling the defund the police movement and are why many cities are revisiting the crime waves of the 70s and 80s.
    - mindslight 4y ago
      If you want to get to the truth of a matter, you need to hold conflicting thoughts in your head at the same time. Most cops are doing a good job, and most people they interact with are criminals. The system allows all of their priors to run amok, unjustly harming everyone they interact with. The system/union protects the bad apples that go even further, who spoil the bunch and gives the profession a bad image. By holding one side blameless, you are contributing to the ongoing destruction of the institution. If you're truly interested in law and order, you should focus on the current lack of law and order for the people tasked with upholding it. As for the actual recent "crime waves", that is being debated to death elsewhere. Like everything, it's some of column A and some of column B and the partisan narratives distract rather than enlighten.
- bumby 4y ago
  How would you characterize their current incentives?
  - giantg2 4y ago
    The real negative I've seen is the culture. Backing up your brother is more important than doing what is right. Racist or dehumanizing banter can be rampant in some departments too. The incentive is that they want to be part of the "in" group and not ostracized, or worse.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    Police are effectively unbound by the laws they claim to uphold - unless the case is egregious, there is an extreme amount of public outrage, and the DA has a spine. As the damage they cause is attributed to "the state" rather than their personal decisions, they have little incentive to keep that damage to a minimum. Essentially, for any situation involving "the police" you should be asking yourself what would happen to a non-police citizen who did the same thing.
    - bumby 4y ago
      You've outlined the lack of a negative incentive (the lack of accountability) but I was asking more about the positive incentive. I.e., what is there incentive for doing the things society doesn't want them to do? E.g., if the IRS doesn't hold me accountable, there is no negative incentive to stop me from cheating on my taxes. However, I may still pay my taxes because I have a positive incentive to fund social programs I value.
      - mindslight 4y ago
        It's selfishly safer to use deadly force on someone that might possibly defend themselves, and it's easier to shoot someone who may run away rather than having to chase. Take a look at footage from countries where the police don't carry guns to see the type of physical work American police are shirking.
RobertRoberts 4y ago
In Minnesota (where so many bad police related things have happened in the past few years) you need a college degree and then police training on top of that. https://dps.mn.gov/entity/post/becoming-a-peace-officer/Pages/Routes-to-Peace-Officer-Licensure.aspx https://dps.mn.gov/entity/post/becoming-a-peace-officer/Page...
- alistairSH 4y ago
  Or 5 years experience in another location.
- Darrengineer 4y ago
  Just so everyone's aware 'college degree' here is expansive including two-year (community/vocational/technical/etc) colleges. I know many people who went to Ridgewater College (a college locally known having low standards and keeping the high school party going) specifically for a degree 'law enforcement'. Highlights include supervised taser use on each other (which probably aids in a mentality of assuming they know how the experience translates to others and underestimating risk) ETA: per the link, the degree requirement isn't applicable to those with prior experience and having been working in police sometime in the prior six years
chipsa 4y ago
3 years of bad training isn't going to actually help.
alistairSH 4y ago
Some areas prefer or require undergraduate degrees, but those can often be bypassed with experience in a location with less stringent entry requirements. The requirements are all over the place. In my location (suburban DC), the posted requirements aren't all that high (21 years old, high school completion), but it's a competitive county (high income, relatively low crime, reasonable pay) so the majority of applicants are either college graduates OR ex-military.
R0b0t1 4y ago
Better training is required, not longer training. A degree program is not the answer for everything.
giantg2 4y ago
"Is there any place in the US where they actually do comprehensive training of police officers?" What do you mean by comprehensive training? I think most states do require that, depending on the definition.
hourago 4y ago
> Because here the police officers need to take a three-year program in a vocational university. Maybe an stupid question, but where is "here"? I missed that.

Spooky23 4y ago

In NY, local police departments require a minimum of 700 hours of training to be certified. IIRC, state troopers are like 1200. Like most of these things, the headline is probably misleading. You probably spend most of the 1500 hours as an apprentice.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
The article states that an apprentice option is an alternative to 1500hrs of classes.
- happyopossum 4y ago
  An alternative that still requires 10000 hours of classroom time, plus 840 hours of apprenticeship time. at 40 hrs/week that's 46 weeks - basically an entire year. To cut hair.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Yeah, I agree it is dumb
  - dahfizz 4y ago
    The article says you can work as an apprentice for 2 full years, OR do 1,000 hours in a classroom + 840 hours as an apprentice. It doesn't sound like that bad of a gig. You can start earning a living wage right out of high school, with a guaranteed promotion into a middle class lifestyle within two years. By that time, your college going peers will be deep in debt and still two years away from a real paycheck.
  - Barrin92 4y ago
    > To cut hair Not sure the dismissive tone is warranted. It's a craft that requires skill and training. Here in Germany it's a full vocational program that generally takes three years. You can only learn so much in a year and just like in any other profession after a year you're still going to be a beginner.