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There's no such thing as absolute safety. There are only tradeoffs. You don't get safety for free. You have to pay very dearly for it in wasted time, unnavigabl

There's no such thing as absolute safety. There are only tradeoffs. You don't get safety for free. You have to pay very dearly for it in wasted time, unnavigable bureaucracies, and ultimately lost productivity. Those costs impose a real burden on real people's lives. In some cases that tradeoff is worth it, but you should always be thinking of it as a tradeoff. A restaurant is one thing, but anybody who has ever hired somebody in the trades to do work on their house knows that the default is not pulling permits at all. If you hire an electrician to add a switch to the light in your closet he's not even going to bother. In many contexts the permitting process is so slow and stupid and inefficient that almost everybody ignores it. You can't keep upping the ante forever and expect people to go along with it. In the end you might just make things worse.

karmelapple 4y ago
Are permits typically required for something like adding a switch to a light in your closet? Genuinely curious, since I have not heard that from contractors, although I have heard permitting concerns for other projects involving electricity and/or plumbing.
- dionidium 4y ago
  It's going to be up to your local building codes -- the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction), in National Electric Code parlance -- but the answer is, "almost certainly." Pretty much any time you're running new wires you should get a permit. Adding a switch? Permit. A couple new recessed lights? Permit. Reality: almost nobody does this. This is a pretty good list of situations where you will/won't need a permit. In most cases you can replace an existing outlet/fixture without a permit, but anything new will require one: https://www.lightingtutor.com/electrical-work-done-without-a-permit/ https://www.lightingtutor.com/electrical-work-done-without-a...
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    It's one of those things that seems like overreach but when nearly every single 3-way switch in your house is wired incorrectly, it starts to make sense. We had a little outbuilding with a pool pump, some gazebo lights, a fan, etc. wired with a 100ft run of 240v 3-wire 14ga romex buried maybe 6" deep and not on a GFCI breaker. Codes/permits aren't aimed to stop the median person from doing their own work, they're to stop the 10th percentile dummy creating an unsafe environment for anyone who comes into contact with their work product.
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      Everything is awesome until it ain’t. It’s structured into your insurance. The risks vary. If you replace an old electrical socket, the risk is pretty low. But when someone gets electrocuted due to some dumb-dumb improperly running electricity to the pool, it’s probably not gonna be your house anymore.

karmelapple 4y ago

Are permits typically required for something like adding a switch to a light in your closet? Genuinely curious, since I have not heard that from contractors, although I have heard permitting concerns for other projects involving electricity and/or plumbing.

dionidium 4y ago
It's going to be up to your local building codes -- the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction), in National Electric Code parlance -- but the answer is, "almost certainly." Pretty much any time you're running new wires you should get a permit. Adding a switch? Permit. A couple new recessed lights? Permit. Reality: almost nobody does this. This is a pretty good list of situations where you will/won't need a permit. In most cases you can replace an existing outlet/fixture without a permit, but anything new will require one: https://www.lightingtutor.com/electrical-work-done-without-a-permit/ https://www.lightingtutor.com/electrical-work-done-without-a...
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  It's one of those things that seems like overreach but when nearly every single 3-way switch in your house is wired incorrectly, it starts to make sense. We had a little outbuilding with a pool pump, some gazebo lights, a fan, etc. wired with a 100ft run of 240v 3-wire 14ga romex buried maybe 6" deep and not on a GFCI breaker. Codes/permits aren't aimed to stop the median person from doing their own work, they're to stop the 10th percentile dummy creating an unsafe environment for anyone who comes into contact with their work product.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    Everything is awesome until it ain’t. It’s structured into your insurance. The risks vary. If you replace an old electrical socket, the risk is pretty low. But when someone gets electrocuted due to some dumb-dumb improperly running electricity to the pool, it’s probably not gonna be your house anymore.