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Chile does not drive massive energy projects. China is in the driver seat. I doubt it will end up built, but that will not be because it is impractical. It wil

by ncmncm 4y ago

Chile does not drive massive energy projects. China is in the driver seat. I doubt it will end up built, but that will not be because it is impractical. It will be because local generation and storage will turn out to be cheaper and less vulnerable to geopolitical upset.

ben_w 4y ago
Last time I looked at this, antipodal HVDC was several (2? 3? Can't remember) orders of magnitude cheaper than batteries at the scale of continental electrical requirements; the limit is needing so much metal you become a dominant player in the world metal mining industry just for this project.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Batteries are the most expensive storage. A negligible fraction of utility storage will be batteries unless some new battery chemistry is very, very cheap. Almost all current utility storage is gravity. That probably won't change.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Hmm. Last time I suggested that[0], I was quickly shot down. I still don't really know why, but as I'm no geologist or civil engineer, I'm willing to believe either a yes or a no at this point. I definitely don't see any other gravity batteries being useful on this scale. [0] specifically I suggested that there was a lot of room for a lot of additional pumped hydro — I don't mean my more recent claim, which is merely that existing pumped hydro is cool
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      There is, in fact, scads of room for add'l pumped hydro. What there isn't room for is more native hydro generation, which needs watershed and a dammed-up river. But pumped hydro only needs an elevated depression. That has actually been a dike around the top of a hill. Natural topography is cheaper, e.g. a box canyon with a dam at the mouth. An alpine pond with no outlet is cheapest of all. People like to insist pumped hydro is badly limited by geography, but hills are very common, and need not be nearby: transmission lines work very well. Transmission losses matter little when top-line generation has zero opex and minimal capex. You just build a little more of it.
mlyle 4y ago
> Chile does not drive massive energy projects. China is in the driver seat. Chile proposes it, hoping that Asia invests a very large amount of money into Chile to make it happen. Thus far, this latter bit has not happened. https://www.gob.cl/en/news/president-pinera-presents-proyecto-antipodas-at-apec-2021-it-will-allow-us-to-share-chiles-clean-solar-energy-in-order-to-meet-other-countries-nighttime-electricity-demand/ https://www.gob.cl/en/news/president-pinera-presents-proyect... Any evidence it has progressed past the Chile-showing-other-countries-Slideware-phase? You tend to uncritically read the most positive, tentative stuff about PV/storage and accept it as absolute fact.

by ncmncm 4y ago

ben_w 4y ago

Last time I looked at this, antipodal HVDC was several (2? 3? Can't remember) orders of magnitude cheaper than batteries at the scale of continental electrical requirements; the limit is needing so much metal you become a dominant player in the world metal mining industry just for this project.

ncmncm 4y ago
Batteries are the most expensive storage. A negligible fraction of utility storage will be batteries unless some new battery chemistry is very, very cheap. Almost all current utility storage is gravity. That probably won't change.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Hmm. Last time I suggested that[0], I was quickly shot down. I still don't really know why, but as I'm no geologist or civil engineer, I'm willing to believe either a yes or a no at this point. I definitely don't see any other gravity batteries being useful on this scale. [0] specifically I suggested that there was a lot of room for a lot of additional pumped hydro — I don't mean my more recent claim, which is merely that existing pumped hydro is cool
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    There is, in fact, scads of room for add'l pumped hydro. What there isn't room for is more native hydro generation, which needs watershed and a dammed-up river. But pumped hydro only needs an elevated depression. That has actually been a dike around the top of a hill. Natural topography is cheaper, e.g. a box canyon with a dam at the mouth. An alpine pond with no outlet is cheapest of all. People like to insist pumped hydro is badly limited by geography, but hills are very common, and need not be nearby: transmission lines work very well. Transmission losses matter little when top-line generation has zero opex and minimal capex. You just build a little more of it.

mlyle 4y ago

> Chile does not drive massive energy projects. China is in the driver seat. Chile proposes it, hoping that Asia invests a very large amount of money into Chile to make it happen. Thus far, this latter bit has not happened. https://www.gob.cl/en/news/president-pinera-presents-proyecto-antipodas-at-apec-2021-it-will-allow-us-to-share-chiles-clean-solar-energy-in-order-to-meet-other-countries-nighttime-electricity-demand/ https://www.gob.cl/en/news/president-pinera-presents-proyect... Any evidence it has progressed past the Chile-showing-other-countries-Slideware-phase? You tend to uncritically read the most positive, tentative stuff about PV/storage and accept it as absolute fact.