7 ms·

They did the same thing with closed source Pylance, which is built on top of the open source Pyright. Pretty despicable behavior no matter how you cut it.

Cu3PO42 4y ago
I'm by no means in favor of closed source extensions, but I feel it's worth mentioning that yes, Pyright is open source and Pylance isn't, but Pyright is also a Microsoft project. You can hardly make the argument that keeping all parts closed source would have been better.
- emptysongglass 4y ago
  I didn't mean to imply otherwise only that building prop. extensions on top of their own open extensions is nothing new for them and smacks of bad faith engagement.
  - thawaya3113 4y ago
    How is that bad faith? Isn’t that, for example, exactly what Gitlab does? It would be bad faith if they removed access to the open source code somehow.
    - Nullabillity 4y ago
      It's advertised as open source, but the published source code isn't what people actually run (when using their official binaries).
- darthrupert 4y ago
  They have full right to do this. They are still scumbags for doing it. Nobody should be terribly surprised when a giant corporation behaves like a scumbag; it's a fundamental feature of such organizations. We as individuals have the responsibility of shunning them when they do this.
  - davidatbu 4y ago
    I'm curious, why are they scumbags? Aren't they free to decide how their time and effort is used? Do they have some inherent obligation to work for you for free(which is what open source is)? If you develop some piece of software, and use the open core model, I wouldn't consider you a scumbag.
    - darthrupert 4y ago
      You speak of them as if they were a person. Microsoft is not a person, so they indeed do not have the same rights as people do. Specifically, they can be called what they are with a far lower threshold than people, especially with the reputation they have accumulated over the decades.
      - davidatbu 4y ago
        I'm not totally familiar with their past actions, but you specifically called the fact that pylance is not open source (while the "pyright" core is) a "scumbag move", which is what I am arguing is unfair. So I'm having trouble figuring out your position: is Microsoft a scumbag for not open sourcing pylance or not? FWIW, I was, until recently, a daily user of pyright, and it's, by a million miles, the best LSP for python out there. The maintainer of pyright also contributes a LOT towards pushing forward the static typing ecosystem in python. In fact, the most recent PEP in Python static typing was initiated, drafted, and first implemented, by the maintainer of pyright[0]. Microsoft also has hired Guido Van Rossum to work on Python full time. So I think calling Microsoft scumbags about an aspect of how they engage with the Python ecosystem is not only unfair, but totally misleading. [0] https://peps.python.org/pep-0681/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0681/
        darthrupert 4y ago
        You again talk about individuals and individual behavior and then switch seamlessly into talking about Microsoft. Even worse, you insinuate that dislike of Microsoft behavior is equal to dislike of individual Microsoft-adjacent peoples’ behavior. No. These things are not the same and they should never be equated.
josephcsible 4y ago
Also, remember that Microsoft added code to Pylance to see if you were running an open-source build of VS Code and to refuse to work if you were.

Cu3PO42 4y ago

I'm by no means in favor of closed source extensions, but I feel it's worth mentioning that yes, Pyright is open source and Pylance isn't, but Pyright is also a Microsoft project. You can hardly make the argument that keeping all parts closed source would have been better.

emptysongglass 4y ago
I didn't mean to imply otherwise only that building prop. extensions on top of their own open extensions is nothing new for them and smacks of bad faith engagement.
- thawaya3113 4y ago
  How is that bad faith? Isn’t that, for example, exactly what Gitlab does? It would be bad faith if they removed access to the open source code somehow.
  - Nullabillity 4y ago
    It's advertised as open source, but the published source code isn't what people actually run (when using their official binaries).
darthrupert 4y ago
They have full right to do this. They are still scumbags for doing it. Nobody should be terribly surprised when a giant corporation behaves like a scumbag; it's a fundamental feature of such organizations. We as individuals have the responsibility of shunning them when they do this.
- davidatbu 4y ago
  I'm curious, why are they scumbags? Aren't they free to decide how their time and effort is used? Do they have some inherent obligation to work for you for free(which is what open source is)? If you develop some piece of software, and use the open core model, I wouldn't consider you a scumbag.
  - darthrupert 4y ago
    You speak of them as if they were a person. Microsoft is not a person, so they indeed do not have the same rights as people do. Specifically, they can be called what they are with a far lower threshold than people, especially with the reputation they have accumulated over the decades.
    - davidatbu 4y ago
      I'm not totally familiar with their past actions, but you specifically called the fact that pylance is not open source (while the "pyright" core is) a "scumbag move", which is what I am arguing is unfair. So I'm having trouble figuring out your position: is Microsoft a scumbag for not open sourcing pylance or not? FWIW, I was, until recently, a daily user of pyright, and it's, by a million miles, the best LSP for python out there. The maintainer of pyright also contributes a LOT towards pushing forward the static typing ecosystem in python. In fact, the most recent PEP in Python static typing was initiated, drafted, and first implemented, by the maintainer of pyright[0]. Microsoft also has hired Guido Van Rossum to work on Python full time. So I think calling Microsoft scumbags about an aspect of how they engage with the Python ecosystem is not only unfair, but totally misleading. [0] https://peps.python.org/pep-0681/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0681/
      - darthrupert 4y ago
        You again talk about individuals and individual behavior and then switch seamlessly into talking about Microsoft. Even worse, you insinuate that dislike of Microsoft behavior is equal to dislike of individual Microsoft-adjacent peoples’ behavior. No. These things are not the same and they should never be equated.

josephcsible 4y ago

Also, remember that Microsoft added code to Pylance to see if you were running an open-source build of VS Code and to refuse to work if you were.