5 ms·

Why do portable drones not offer the instant firepower?

yding 4y ago
If you're talking about DJI or equivalents they only have 30 minutes or so of flight time and can carry at most one bomb at a time. They can be useful in guerrilla situations but firepower wise it's not even in the same league as a tank with 40-60 cannon rounds and several thousand machine gun rounds.
- wyldfire 4y ago
  What if the drone were so inexpensive and portable that you could consider it like you do ammunition? Then the flight time and payload is much less critical - it's just a pilot-able bomb.
  - Firmwarrior 4y ago
    What if we just donated that money to all these hostile countries' citizens, and told them we'd stop the donations if they piss us off? Instead of dreaming of turning the future warzone from Terminator 2 into a reality?
    - _carbyau_ 4y ago
      Well, that (economic intervention) has effectively happened to Russia. And yet they are still going it seems. So to answer your question: Nothing would happen, at least for a few months it seems.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - dolmen 4y ago
    It's easier for infantry to carry one drone and ammunitions than a set of one-shot drones.
    - dodobirdlord 4y ago
      In practice it’s actually the opposite. A reusable drone has to have enough fuel to come back, which halves its range compared to a loitering munition that doesn’t come back. A reusable drone isn’t intended to collide with the target, and can’t be rocket-powered, so it will be much slower to reach and strike a target when the target is identified. It has to have the ability to land and to be rearmed, which adds complexity and thus expense. Past a certain size a drone can fly high enough and far enough that it fills the combat role of an aircraft, but as far as man-portable systems go, well-resourced militaries demonstrate consistent preference for single-use guided explosives like the Javelin or Switchblade to maximize range and payload size and minimize time to impact. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroVironment_Switchblade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroVironment_Switchblade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin
  - dodobirdlord 4y ago
    This is called a guided missile, or a loitering munition, depending mostly on how quickly it gets to the target. They’ve been around for a while and are very useful but have not rendered tanks obsolete yet.
dragontamer 4y ago
Because when a tank fires its APFSDS gun, the muzzle velocity is 1500 meters-per-second. In contrast, a drone flies at 25 to 50 meters-per-second. ------ To put it in concrete terms, a tank 3000 meters away will hit its target in 2 seconds. A drone 3000 meters away will take 1.5 minutes. In contrast, the Javelin you launch will take 12 seconds before it hits the tank at that range. That's more than enough time for the tank commander to see the Javelin and return fire, killing you before the Javelin even strikes the tank. (This is why "fire and forget" is so important on a missile like the Javelin). So we can see that even a missile like a Javelin has a significant speed disadvantage on these long-range plains that exist on the Donbas region. Its a different fight than the typical heavy-urban environment that Ukraine was doing well in a few months ago. ----- Its one thing to fight a tank in urban combat, where they can only see 200 meters out (too many buildings blocking your vision and the tank's vision). Its a totally different thing to fight a tank on open plains, where 3000m worth of vision is common.
- wyldfire 4y ago
  > To put it in concrete terms, a tank 3000 meters away will hit its target in 2 seconds. A drone 3000 meters away will take 1.5 minutes. > In contrast, the Javelin you launch will take 12 seconds before it hits the tank at that range. What's the latency for the turret to pivot to the target angle? I suppose it's pretty fast but let's say in worst case 180deg? How long does that take? 1s? 10s?
  - ineedasername 4y ago
    T72 is about 3 seconds for 180 degrees. But it also takes time for a human in the tank to notice the incoming AT round, trace it back to the source, acquire a target lock, and then swing the turret over. I can only guess at how long the full return fire process takes, but you only need to be pointing a javelin AT at the tank, it will do the rest. You can be sprinting away pretty much as you launch and get 50 meters away. Safe? Hell no, but it's not as bad as the "2 seconds" comment makes it out to be.
    - dragontamer 4y ago
ckozlowski 4y ago
They don't offer the same level of firepower. A portable drone may be faster employed than a helicopter, large drone, or close support aircraft, but it suffers from lack of payload. It also takes longer to get on target, and has it's own set of vulnerabilities. (The vulnerability argument being that even if it is expendable, a drone disrupted or shot down does not help your unit eliminate the threat it was facing.) A large-caliber, direct-fire gun provides long range, precise, and instant effects. As The Chieftan explains: https://youtu.be/lI7T650RTT8?t=934 https://youtu.be/lI7T650RTT8?t=934 (timecode link provided.)
mattbrewsbytes 4y ago
How much ammo can a drone carry? Even if its an African ... drone or a European one, it's a simple question of weight ratios.
- moogly 4y ago
  Perhaps it could carry 5 — no, 3! — holy hand grenades.

If you're talking about DJI or equivalents they only have 30 minutes or so of flight time and can carry at most one bomb at a time. They can be useful in guerrilla situations but firepower wise it's not even in the same league as a tank with 40-60 cannon rounds and several thousand machine gun rounds.

wyldfire 4y ago
What if the drone were so inexpensive and portable that you could consider it like you do ammunition? Then the flight time and payload is much less critical - it's just a pilot-able bomb.
- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  What if we just donated that money to all these hostile countries' citizens, and told them we'd stop the donations if they piss us off? Instead of dreaming of turning the future warzone from Terminator 2 into a reality?
  - _carbyau_ 4y ago
    Well, that (economic intervention) has effectively happened to Russia. And yet they are still going it seems. So to answer your question: Nothing would happen, at least for a few months it seems.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- dolmen 4y ago
  It's easier for infantry to carry one drone and ammunitions than a set of one-shot drones.
  - dodobirdlord 4y ago
    In practice it’s actually the opposite. A reusable drone has to have enough fuel to come back, which halves its range compared to a loitering munition that doesn’t come back. A reusable drone isn’t intended to collide with the target, and can’t be rocket-powered, so it will be much slower to reach and strike a target when the target is identified. It has to have the ability to land and to be rearmed, which adds complexity and thus expense. Past a certain size a drone can fly high enough and far enough that it fills the combat role of an aircraft, but as far as man-portable systems go, well-resourced militaries demonstrate consistent preference for single-use guided explosives like the Javelin or Switchblade to maximize range and payload size and minimize time to impact. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroVironment_Switchblade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroVironment_Switchblade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin
- dodobirdlord 4y ago
  This is called a guided missile, or a loitering munition, depending mostly on how quickly it gets to the target. They’ve been around for a while and are very useful but have not rendered tanks obsolete yet.

dragontamer 4y ago

Because when a tank fires its APFSDS gun, the muzzle velocity is 1500 meters-per-second. In contrast, a drone flies at 25 to 50 meters-per-second. ------ To put it in concrete terms, a tank 3000 meters away will hit its target in 2 seconds. A drone 3000 meters away will take 1.5 minutes. In contrast, the Javelin you launch will take 12 seconds before it hits the tank at that range. That's more than enough time for the tank commander to see the Javelin and return fire, killing you before the Javelin even strikes the tank. (This is why "fire and forget" is so important on a missile like the Javelin). So we can see that even a missile like a Javelin has a significant speed disadvantage on these long-range plains that exist on the Donbas region. Its a different fight than the typical heavy-urban environment that Ukraine was doing well in a few months ago. ----- Its one thing to fight a tank in urban combat, where they can only see 200 meters out (too many buildings blocking your vision and the tank's vision). Its a totally different thing to fight a tank on open plains, where 3000m worth of vision is common.

wyldfire 4y ago
> To put it in concrete terms, a tank 3000 meters away will hit its target in 2 seconds. A drone 3000 meters away will take 1.5 minutes. > In contrast, the Javelin you launch will take 12 seconds before it hits the tank at that range. What's the latency for the turret to pivot to the target angle? I suppose it's pretty fast but let's say in worst case 180deg? How long does that take? 1s? 10s?
- ineedasername 4y ago
  T72 is about 3 seconds for 180 degrees. But it also takes time for a human in the tank to notice the incoming AT round, trace it back to the source, acquire a target lock, and then swing the turret over. I can only guess at how long the full return fire process takes, but you only need to be pointing a javelin AT at the tank, it will do the rest. You can be sprinting away pretty much as you launch and get 50 meters away. Safe? Hell no, but it's not as bad as the "2 seconds" comment makes it out to be.
  - dragontamer 4y ago

ckozlowski 4y ago

They don't offer the same level of firepower. A portable drone may be faster employed than a helicopter, large drone, or close support aircraft, but it suffers from lack of payload. It also takes longer to get on target, and has it's own set of vulnerabilities. (The vulnerability argument being that even if it is expendable, a drone disrupted or shot down does not help your unit eliminate the threat it was facing.) A large-caliber, direct-fire gun provides long range, precise, and instant effects. As The Chieftan explains: https://youtu.be/lI7T650RTT8?t=934 https://youtu.be/lI7T650RTT8?t=934 (timecode link provided.)

mattbrewsbytes 4y ago

How much ammo can a drone carry? Even if its an African ... drone or a European one, it's a simple question of weight ratios.

moogly 4y ago
Perhaps it could carry 5 — no, 3! — holy hand grenades.