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> soon most work will be done pseudonymously Eyebrow raised very high 81 days this article was discussed in HN: https://www.sofuckingagile.com/blog/mourning-l

by vasco 4y ago

> soon most work will be done pseudonymously Eyebrow raised very high 81 days this article was discussed in HN: https://www.sofuckingagile.com/blog/mourning-loss-as-a-remote-team https://www.sofuckingagile.com/blog/mourning-loss-as-a-remot... In it, among other things, we learn a team member who was not even anonymous passed away, and the company only found out when the person's wife created a support ticket because they didn't know basic facts about them. If after reading that article, you walk away thinking it's a great setup, I'm thinking you're likely very different from anyone I've ever met.

maxbond 4y ago
Thanks for sharing stranger, that was a powerful piece.
samstave 4y ago
Doesnt this model only appeal to the use in "one-time, short-term, mostly-illegal" constructs? "Hey Mr. RockStar Dev, I want you to make me an app to rip of [THING]" "Sure, my @wallet is here and my skillset is listed here"
- rgbrgb 4y ago
  I'd guess that interaction is very common and not illegal anywhere I'm aware of.
  - nightpool 4y ago
    In most jurisdictions, it is illegal to contract with someone for goods or services over a certain amount if you don't have their tax information. Otherwise, tax avoidance would be trivial. In the US specifically, you're required to file Form 1099 for any contracts over $600, which requires the other party's SSN, EIN, or another foreign tax identifier.
    - jrumbut 4y ago
      Some of the companies with job postings on that site seem to be headed by people in the US. I'm not a lawyer but I think they're taking a serious risk.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Admittedly, in the US, they could probably set up an entity for tax purposes. Their real identity would still be somewhere in the chain but not necessarily easily discoverable by the person you're doing work for. ADDED: As others have noted, there are probably legal issues with that entity effectively acting a full-time employee. And, of course, the entity doing the work can't get any employee benefits.
      - nightpool 4y ago
        Business registration is a matter of public record, as far as I'm aware. Any entity you might set up for tax purposes would need at least to have a registered public agent, and probably a public list of directors and shareholders. However, it would mean that the business you're contracting with to no longer needs to file a 1099, at least.
        ghaff 4y ago
        Yes. Having a business entity doesn't necessarily keep someone from tracking down your identity. But, depending upon how complex you want to make things (and presumably how much money you're willing to spend), you can probably obfuscate your identity from being casually revealed to everyone. Really depends what you're trying to accomplish.
        samstave 4y ago
        A very interesting market for such is the Elderly Fraud call industry out of Tel_aviv... Its a BILLION dollar industry calling elderly US population from call centers in Tel Aviv, which may or may not have also ties to Niger. its BIG.
    - 4y ago
  - happyopossum 4y ago
    You're explicitly contracting to rip off another app, and doing so by paying under the table with no taxes paid/collected on either end, and you think that's totally legit?
    - warkdarrior 4y ago
      Ripping off another app is not illegal in most countries, unless you copy their name or logo.
    - samstave 4y ago
      This is exactly what I was describing, you did a better job.
0xPersona 4y ago
Thank you for sharing. That was a tough read. Really feel for everyone involved. I think regardless of the type of work (anon friendly, remote, in person), we need to build systems to deal with these sorts of things gracefully, in a way that supports the people affected and doesn't bring any further suffering or pain to what is already such a tragic and difficult situation.
pessimizer 4y ago
I think it's a great setup. I don't understand why I'm supposed to think it's a bad setup other than that Pete's wife didn't have enough information to pick up his pay without going through support, but that's Pete's fault. Any story about a friendly person dying is sad. His employer not having documentation on him is the least sad thing about the story.
- rgrieselhuber 4y ago
  It's an example of using edge-case scenarios that are pretty much orthogonal to the issue at hand as an argument against people having the right to work and purchase things in such a way that their privacy is still maintained.
- blablabla123 4y ago
  At first sight it is a great setup. And yet to take the argument to the extreme and considering unregistered work, at first it seems a good deal for workers, less paperwork and less taxes etc. But it only works until workers try to make use of their rights, get sick or similar, then it can turn out to be really bad. I think overall it's fixing the right problem (complex paperwork, privacy issues) but not in a sustainable way.
madrox 4y ago
Soon(tm) I'm reminded of a slide show on the metric system I watched in science class in the 80s. I have a vivid memory of hearing it say "soon everything in the US will be on the metric system" with a picture of a woman standing next to a speed limit sign in mph.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Even the UK can't do it, the US never will. We implemented metric where it made sense, but forcing consumers into new units just because we think it would be cool if the whole world used the same measurements... well, that's a hard sell.
  - madrox 4y ago
    And yet we think we'll get all phones on USB-C before too long
jjice 4y ago
I feel like HN has split crowds on this. I personally enjoy having a connection with my coworkers. I spend a lot of time in my week with them, and if I enjoy being around them, I consider that a win. Other people want as little to do with their coworkers as possible. Not saying either of these is bad or the "right mindset", but there is a difference in preferences here.
- towaway15463 4y ago
  I have a lot of pseudonymous friends that I speak to on a regular basis. Anonymity doesn’t preclude friendship.
  - jjice 4y ago
    True. Another personal preference. That one is definitely a bit of a spectrum. I know my coworkers and if they have kids, but I don't interact with them on social media. There's a lot of variance in there, but to each their own.
monkeybutton 4y ago
Thanks, this spurred me to ask my spouse what she'd do if I got in an accident. Her first response was "I have no idea" then unlock my phone and try looking for familiar names.
sam0x17 4y ago
That's such a "think of the children!" argument. Yes I was there for that thread and it was sad when it happened, but such is life. Privacy is more important than whatever this is.
moralestapia 4y ago
I DO think it's a great setup, this kind of thing obliterates nepotism and favors meritocracy, that's a win on my book!
astoor 4y ago
Also, how do you trust anonymous employees not to steal? Pretty extreme example, but just look at the cryptocurrency space which is filled with stories of theft by anonymous founders or employees, e.g. "Sifu" of DeFi protocol Wonderland was actually Michael Patryn of Quadriga infamy[0] (who in turn was actually Omar Dhanani who had previously served 18 months for identity theft[1]), the "UmbralUpsilon" contributor to Indexed Finance used inside information to "steal" $11.9M in tokens[2], etc. etc. Now if it were charities doing good work with no money involved (either received from donors or paid to employees), then I can just about imagine a case for anonymous philanthropy or whatever, but money and anonymous individuals do not safely mix. Even if they don't initially set out to steal, they might be tempted if they find they can get away with it - opportunity makes a thief. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30120762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30120762 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30346251 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30346251 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31478795 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31478795
- harikb 4y ago
  +1 Not only nefarious entities, but the "social/twitter world" has shown us that people tend to be careless and at their worst behavior when anonymous. If one could program ones code to brick the phones/computers of those they consider political enemies, and could get away with it anonymously and start a new job under a "new identity", who wouldn't be tempted?
FastMonkey 4y ago
I wonder what the correlation is between people who think this is a good idea, and people who feel anxious and lonely. Not saying this is the only cause, but if you make decisions like this you'll end up isolating yourself from some pretty great support networks. Isolation and separateness is not a great long term environment for mental health.

by vasco 4y ago

maxbond 4y ago

Thanks for sharing stranger, that was a powerful piece.

samstave 4y ago

Doesnt this model only appeal to the use in "one-time, short-term, mostly-illegal" constructs? "Hey Mr. RockStar Dev, I want you to make me an app to rip of [THING]" "Sure, my @wallet is here and my skillset is listed here"

rgbrgb 4y ago
I'd guess that interaction is very common and not illegal anywhere I'm aware of.
- nightpool 4y ago
  In most jurisdictions, it is illegal to contract with someone for goods or services over a certain amount if you don't have their tax information. Otherwise, tax avoidance would be trivial. In the US specifically, you're required to file Form 1099 for any contracts over $600, which requires the other party's SSN, EIN, or another foreign tax identifier.
  - jrumbut 4y ago
    Some of the companies with job postings on that site seem to be headed by people in the US. I'm not a lawyer but I think they're taking a serious risk.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Admittedly, in the US, they could probably set up an entity for tax purposes. Their real identity would still be somewhere in the chain but not necessarily easily discoverable by the person you're doing work for. ADDED: As others have noted, there are probably legal issues with that entity effectively acting a full-time employee. And, of course, the entity doing the work can't get any employee benefits.
    - nightpool 4y ago
      Business registration is a matter of public record, as far as I'm aware. Any entity you might set up for tax purposes would need at least to have a registered public agent, and probably a public list of directors and shareholders. However, it would mean that the business you're contracting with to no longer needs to file a 1099, at least.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        Yes. Having a business entity doesn't necessarily keep someone from tracking down your identity. But, depending upon how complex you want to make things (and presumably how much money you're willing to spend), you can probably obfuscate your identity from being casually revealed to everyone. Really depends what you're trying to accomplish.
        samstave 4y ago
        A very interesting market for such is the Elderly Fraud call industry out of Tel_aviv... Its a BILLION dollar industry calling elderly US population from call centers in Tel Aviv, which may or may not have also ties to Niger. its BIG.
  - 4y ago
- happyopossum 4y ago
  You're explicitly contracting to rip off another app, and doing so by paying under the table with no taxes paid/collected on either end, and you think that's totally legit?
  - warkdarrior 4y ago
    Ripping off another app is not illegal in most countries, unless you copy their name or logo.
  - samstave 4y ago
    This is exactly what I was describing, you did a better job.

0xPersona 4y ago

Thank you for sharing. That was a tough read. Really feel for everyone involved. I think regardless of the type of work (anon friendly, remote, in person), we need to build systems to deal with these sorts of things gracefully, in a way that supports the people affected and doesn't bring any further suffering or pain to what is already such a tragic and difficult situation.

pessimizer 4y ago

I think it's a great setup. I don't understand why I'm supposed to think it's a bad setup other than that Pete's wife didn't have enough information to pick up his pay without going through support, but that's Pete's fault. Any story about a friendly person dying is sad. His employer not having documentation on him is the least sad thing about the story.

rgrieselhuber 4y ago
It's an example of using edge-case scenarios that are pretty much orthogonal to the issue at hand as an argument against people having the right to work and purchase things in such a way that their privacy is still maintained.
blablabla123 4y ago
At first sight it is a great setup. And yet to take the argument to the extreme and considering unregistered work, at first it seems a good deal for workers, less paperwork and less taxes etc. But it only works until workers try to make use of their rights, get sick or similar, then it can turn out to be really bad. I think overall it's fixing the right problem (complex paperwork, privacy issues) but not in a sustainable way.

madrox 4y ago

Soon(tm) I'm reminded of a slide show on the metric system I watched in science class in the 80s. I have a vivid memory of hearing it say "soon everything in the US will be on the metric system" with a picture of a woman standing next to a speed limit sign in mph.

rootusrootus 4y ago
Even the UK can't do it, the US never will. We implemented metric where it made sense, but forcing consumers into new units just because we think it would be cool if the whole world used the same measurements... well, that's a hard sell.
- madrox 4y ago
  And yet we think we'll get all phones on USB-C before too long

jjice 4y ago

I feel like HN has split crowds on this. I personally enjoy having a connection with my coworkers. I spend a lot of time in my week with them, and if I enjoy being around them, I consider that a win. Other people want as little to do with their coworkers as possible. Not saying either of these is bad or the "right mindset", but there is a difference in preferences here.

towaway15463 4y ago
I have a lot of pseudonymous friends that I speak to on a regular basis. Anonymity doesn’t preclude friendship.
- jjice 4y ago
  True. Another personal preference. That one is definitely a bit of a spectrum. I know my coworkers and if they have kids, but I don't interact with them on social media. There's a lot of variance in there, but to each their own.

monkeybutton 4y ago

Thanks, this spurred me to ask my spouse what she'd do if I got in an accident. Her first response was "I have no idea" then unlock my phone and try looking for familiar names.

sam0x17 4y ago

That's such a "think of the children!" argument. Yes I was there for that thread and it was sad when it happened, but such is life. Privacy is more important than whatever this is.

moralestapia 4y ago

I DO think it's a great setup, this kind of thing obliterates nepotism and favors meritocracy, that's a win on my book!

astoor 4y ago

Also, how do you trust anonymous employees not to steal? Pretty extreme example, but just look at the cryptocurrency space which is filled with stories of theft by anonymous founders or employees, e.g. "Sifu" of DeFi protocol Wonderland was actually Michael Patryn of Quadriga infamy[0] (who in turn was actually Omar Dhanani who had previously served 18 months for identity theft[1]), the "UmbralUpsilon" contributor to Indexed Finance used inside information to "steal" $11.9M in tokens[2], etc. etc. Now if it were charities doing good work with no money involved (either received from donors or paid to employees), then I can just about imagine a case for anonymous philanthropy or whatever, but money and anonymous individuals do not safely mix. Even if they don't initially set out to steal, they might be tempted if they find they can get away with it - opportunity makes a thief. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30120762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30120762 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30346251 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30346251 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31478795 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31478795

harikb 4y ago
+1 Not only nefarious entities, but the "social/twitter world" has shown us that people tend to be careless and at their worst behavior when anonymous. If one could program ones code to brick the phones/computers of those they consider political enemies, and could get away with it anonymously and start a new job under a "new identity", who wouldn't be tempted?

FastMonkey 4y ago

I wonder what the correlation is between people who think this is a good idea, and people who feel anxious and lonely. Not saying this is the only cause, but if you make decisions like this you'll end up isolating yourself from some pretty great support networks. Isolation and separateness is not a great long term environment for mental health.