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The global supply chains for lithium batteries are already struggling to keep up just with current demand. Where are we going to get enough cobalt? Hopefully no

The global supply chains for lithium batteries are already struggling to keep up just with current demand. Where are we going to get enough cobalt? Hopefully not DR Congo.

adrianN 4y ago
Who says Lithium batteries are the best technology for grid scale storage? (Besides Elon, I guess?)
- wumpus 4y ago
  There are multiple kinds of grid storage. Australia, for example, wants these batteries to provide fast-acting frequency stabilization... in addition to stabilizing the output of various wind and solar facilities.
jhallenworld 4y ago
>Where are we going to get enough cobalt? Nobody would use this kind of lithium ion battery for grid storage. Instead use Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) batteries- no cobalt needed. LiFePo4 batteries are absolutely good enough right now for grid storage.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  And any sort of lithium battery is the most expensive storage. Utilities are not generally in a habit of reflexively choosing the most expensive alternative, even if some have plumped for nukes in places where ratepayers have no say.
ncmncm 4y ago
Batteries will be a negligible fraction of utility storage, so that is moot.
- sanderjd 4y ago
  Why? What will the rest be?
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    Kinetic (water gravity, flywheel) or thermal (molten salt baths which can be supplemented with solar thermal). None of these things exist at a large scale except for pumped hydro / water gravity, and that requires very convenient topography and geology to work. Generally, any non-chemical storage system is overpriced (too inefficient) or a maintenance disaster.
    - sanderjd 4y ago
      Do you think those technologies will be scaled such that batteries are a "negligible fraction" of utility storage, or are you just giving examples of possibilities?
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        Numerous technologies will be scaled. Those mentioned adjacent are just very easily understood examples. Utilities will have criteria other than "easily understood", cost chief among them.
    - User23 4y ago
      Flywheels and molten salt both have pretty gnarly failure modes too. Not Chernobyl bad, but still no fun.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        Underground flywheels are perfectly safe, and more easily kept evacuated. But they won't be used much at utility scale, because they are expensive per Wh stored. Maximum storage is dictated by tensile strength of the wheel material, and each wheel needs its own motor / generator.
    - 4y ago
nine_k 4y ago
There is a number of battery chemistries more cheap and even efficient than Lithium-based, but with lower energy density. High energy density is important for handheld devices, for flying devices, even for cars. But stationary energy storage can be much heavier and bulkier per kWh stored, as long as it's cheaper, and can sustain more than a few thousand recharge cycles. Lithium batteries have the momentum and are dropping in price because of the EV cars revolution happening right now. When solar revolution will happen i utility scale, the utility-type batteries that will emerge may be seriously different.
- belorn 4y ago
  Since you are 100% certain that such technology will emerge in an economical viable state to solve the storage problem for Europe, could you please provide a date so we can draft a EU law that forbids burning of fossil fuel in the European market by that date. If you can do it by this winter it would solve inflation, enable a complete sanction packet against Russian oil and gas, solve several political conflicts within EU in regard to the Ukraine war, eliminate the food shortage problem and significant reduce the cost of farming, make a large dent in reducing global warming, improve GDP, and boost prosperity in general.
  - nine_k 4y ago
    Alternative chemisitries are many, and are actively developed; here's a 2021 overview: https://www.mining.com/non-lithium-battery-chemistries-to-grow-in-importance-for-stationary-energy-storage-sector-report/ https://www.mining.com/non-lithium-battery-chemistries-to-gr... What I can't predict is when some of them will become competitive enough to matter, and thus used in some large infrastructure projects.
  - adrianN 4y ago
    If we had completely free, 100% efficient grid scale storage of unlimited capacity today we couldn't stop burning fossil fuels because we don't have enough renewable generation capacity installed to fill any form of storage.
    - 4y ago
WalterBright 4y ago
The advantage of lithium batteries is energy/weight and energy/volume. With grid storage, neither weight nor volume is much of an issue. A couple years back, "60 Minutes" ran a segment of somebody developing grid batteries with seawater and dirt. They didn't store much energy per weight and volume, but who cares for grid batteries. I wonder what happened to this technology.

The global supply chains for lithium batteries are already struggling to keep up just with current demand. Where are we going to get enough cobalt? Hopefully not DR Congo.

adrianN 4y ago

Who says Lithium batteries are the best technology for grid scale storage? (Besides Elon, I guess?)

wumpus 4y ago
There are multiple kinds of grid storage. Australia, for example, wants these batteries to provide fast-acting frequency stabilization... in addition to stabilizing the output of various wind and solar facilities.

jhallenworld 4y ago

>Where are we going to get enough cobalt? Nobody would use this kind of lithium ion battery for grid storage. Instead use Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) batteries- no cobalt needed. LiFePo4 batteries are absolutely good enough right now for grid storage.

ncmncm 4y ago
And any sort of lithium battery is the most expensive storage. Utilities are not generally in a habit of reflexively choosing the most expensive alternative, even if some have plumped for nukes in places where ratepayers have no say.

ncmncm 4y ago

Batteries will be a negligible fraction of utility storage, so that is moot.

sanderjd 4y ago
Why? What will the rest be?
- zdragnar 4y ago
  Kinetic (water gravity, flywheel) or thermal (molten salt baths which can be supplemented with solar thermal). None of these things exist at a large scale except for pumped hydro / water gravity, and that requires very convenient topography and geology to work. Generally, any non-chemical storage system is overpriced (too inefficient) or a maintenance disaster.
  - sanderjd 4y ago
    Do you think those technologies will be scaled such that batteries are a "negligible fraction" of utility storage, or are you just giving examples of possibilities?
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      Numerous technologies will be scaled. Those mentioned adjacent are just very easily understood examples. Utilities will have criteria other than "easily understood", cost chief among them.
  - User23 4y ago
    Flywheels and molten salt both have pretty gnarly failure modes too. Not Chernobyl bad, but still no fun.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      Underground flywheels are perfectly safe, and more easily kept evacuated. But they won't be used much at utility scale, because they are expensive per Wh stored. Maximum storage is dictated by tensile strength of the wheel material, and each wheel needs its own motor / generator.
  - 4y ago

nine_k 4y ago

There is a number of battery chemistries more cheap and even efficient than Lithium-based, but with lower energy density. High energy density is important for handheld devices, for flying devices, even for cars. But stationary energy storage can be much heavier and bulkier per kWh stored, as long as it's cheaper, and can sustain more than a few thousand recharge cycles. Lithium batteries have the momentum and are dropping in price because of the EV cars revolution happening right now. When solar revolution will happen i utility scale, the utility-type batteries that will emerge may be seriously different.

belorn 4y ago
Since you are 100% certain that such technology will emerge in an economical viable state to solve the storage problem for Europe, could you please provide a date so we can draft a EU law that forbids burning of fossil fuel in the European market by that date. If you can do it by this winter it would solve inflation, enable a complete sanction packet against Russian oil and gas, solve several political conflicts within EU in regard to the Ukraine war, eliminate the food shortage problem and significant reduce the cost of farming, make a large dent in reducing global warming, improve GDP, and boost prosperity in general.
- nine_k 4y ago
  Alternative chemisitries are many, and are actively developed; here's a 2021 overview: https://www.mining.com/non-lithium-battery-chemistries-to-grow-in-importance-for-stationary-energy-storage-sector-report/ https://www.mining.com/non-lithium-battery-chemistries-to-gr... What I can't predict is when some of them will become competitive enough to matter, and thus used in some large infrastructure projects.
- adrianN 4y ago
  If we had completely free, 100% efficient grid scale storage of unlimited capacity today we couldn't stop burning fossil fuels because we don't have enough renewable generation capacity installed to fill any form of storage.
  - 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago

The advantage of lithium batteries is energy/weight and energy/volume. With grid storage, neither weight nor volume is much of an issue. A couple years back, "60 Minutes" ran a segment of somebody developing grid batteries with seawater and dirt. They didn't store much energy per weight and volume, but who cares for grid batteries. I wonder what happened to this technology.