6 ms·

Transmitting power over long distances has its own problems and infrastructure costs. It isn't trivial.

by thereddaikon 4y ago

adrianN 4y ago
Building pipelines for oil and gas isn't trivial either but we managed to do it.
- philwelch 4y ago
  Oil and gas pipelines do not normally leak. Power lines do leak. It's called "line loss" and it's a significant factor in power distribution.
  - adrianN 4y ago
    They do in fact leak a bit. Power losses are measured in single digit percents per 1000km. That's not nothing of course, but it's sufficiently low to transmit power from windy places to less windy places and from sunny places to less sunny places.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      When opex is free, and capex is falling exponentially, you just put in a little more power upstream.
  - paulmd 4y ago
    > Oil and gas pipelines do not normally leak. ???? > Currently, the most complete bottom-up inventory of natural gas system emissions is the 2012 U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) Greenhouse Gas Inventory (GHGI). (2) It estimates an overall system-wide methane loss rate of 6.2 Tg/yr of methane, or 1.3% of methane transported (Supporting Information (SI), Section 16) and that the transmission and storage sector (T&S) is the largest emitting segment of the natural gas industry, (2) accounting for about one-third of methane emissions. > For T&S stations that are required to report to the EPA’s Greenhouse Gas Reporting Program (GHGRP), this study estimates total emissions to be 260% [215% to 330%] of the reportable emissions for these stations, primarily due to the inclusion of emission sources that are not reported under the GHGRP rules, updated emission factors, and super-emitter emissions. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.5b01669 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.5b01669 Gas will literally bleed right through the seals at a certain rate, especially with the compressor motors, which is no different to the electrical losses from stepping voltage up/down. And this is actually a huge problem with natural gas specifically because methane is an incredibly potent greenhouse gas... around 30x as potent as CO2 over 100 years. Losing a couple percent of your methane is a big deal. That is actually what is driving the push for electric-driven heat pumps for home use... it's better to lose a little bit of electricity than to have thousands of miles of poorly-maintained residential gas distribution that even in the best case are leaking highly potent methane through seals.
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    Not only they leak, but, unlike electricity, leaked gas is terrible for the environment.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    > Oil and gas pipelines do not normally leak. But they do. Normally. A fraction of the fuel transmitted through the pipe will be lost, seals, punctures, breaks, medium changes, over-pressure release through venting and so on. > Power lines do leak. It's called "line loss" and it's a significant factor in power distribution. Not all that significant in short range transmission, and until we figured out HVDC a major factor in long range transmission but the number of HVDC links that are coming online is increasing rapidly making this much less of a problem. The gear used for this is very impressive stuff, it is a different level of semiconductor engineering than what you normally have kicking around the yard but it works and is deployed at scale already with very good results.
- thereddaikon 4y ago
  I don't see what that has to do with nuclear plants or solar farms. My original point was that complaining that uranium isn't evenly distributed is a red herring because you don't build power plants on top of the mines. Whereas you do have to build solar farms where the sunny days are plentiful.
  - adrianN 4y ago
    Most places where people live have enough sun and/or wind to meet demand.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    And you can deliver that renewable power wherever it is needed, for a one-time up-front cost, free thereafter.
    - thereddaikon 4y ago
      No you can't. Transmission lines have upkeep.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        You have to clear brush periodically, and repair them when they break.

Transmitting power over long distances has its own problems and infrastructure costs. It isn't trivial.

adrianN 4y ago

Building pipelines for oil and gas isn't trivial either but we managed to do it.

philwelch 4y ago
Oil and gas pipelines do not normally leak. Power lines do leak. It's called "line loss" and it's a significant factor in power distribution.
- adrianN 4y ago
  They do in fact leak a bit. Power losses are measured in single digit percents per 1000km. That's not nothing of course, but it's sufficiently low to transmit power from windy places to less windy places and from sunny places to less sunny places.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    When opex is free, and capex is falling exponentially, you just put in a little more power upstream.
- paulmd 4y ago
  > Oil and gas pipelines do not normally leak. ???? > Currently, the most complete bottom-up inventory of natural gas system emissions is the 2012 U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) Greenhouse Gas Inventory (GHGI). (2) It estimates an overall system-wide methane loss rate of 6.2 Tg/yr of methane, or 1.3% of methane transported (Supporting Information (SI), Section 16) and that the transmission and storage sector (T&S) is the largest emitting segment of the natural gas industry, (2) accounting for about one-third of methane emissions. > For T&S stations that are required to report to the EPA’s Greenhouse Gas Reporting Program (GHGRP), this study estimates total emissions to be 260% [215% to 330%] of the reportable emissions for these stations, primarily due to the inclusion of emission sources that are not reported under the GHGRP rules, updated emission factors, and super-emitter emissions. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.5b01669 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.5b01669 Gas will literally bleed right through the seals at a certain rate, especially with the compressor motors, which is no different to the electrical losses from stepping voltage up/down. And this is actually a huge problem with natural gas specifically because methane is an incredibly potent greenhouse gas... around 30x as potent as CO2 over 100 years. Losing a couple percent of your methane is a big deal. That is actually what is driving the push for electric-driven heat pumps for home use... it's better to lose a little bit of electricity than to have thousands of miles of poorly-maintained residential gas distribution that even in the best case are leaking highly potent methane through seals.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  Not only they leak, but, unlike electricity, leaked gas is terrible for the environment.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  > Oil and gas pipelines do not normally leak. But they do. Normally. A fraction of the fuel transmitted through the pipe will be lost, seals, punctures, breaks, medium changes, over-pressure release through venting and so on. > Power lines do leak. It's called "line loss" and it's a significant factor in power distribution. Not all that significant in short range transmission, and until we figured out HVDC a major factor in long range transmission but the number of HVDC links that are coming online is increasing rapidly making this much less of a problem. The gear used for this is very impressive stuff, it is a different level of semiconductor engineering than what you normally have kicking around the yard but it works and is deployed at scale already with very good results.
thereddaikon 4y ago
I don't see what that has to do with nuclear plants or solar farms. My original point was that complaining that uranium isn't evenly distributed is a red herring because you don't build power plants on top of the mines. Whereas you do have to build solar farms where the sunny days are plentiful.
- adrianN 4y ago
  Most places where people live have enough sun and/or wind to meet demand.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  And you can deliver that renewable power wherever it is needed, for a one-time up-front cost, free thereafter.
  - thereddaikon 4y ago
    No you can't. Transmission lines have upkeep.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      You have to clear brush periodically, and repair them when they break.