6 ms·

It’s just scale. Those batteries and pumped hydro stories seem big. Relative to your house, they are. Relative to the grid as a whole, they are small.

by creato 4y ago

ben_w 4y ago
That doesn't answer the question. What exactly is the problem that needs to be solved?
- paulmd 4y ago
  Scaling up capacity of the storage. There aren't that many sites that are geologically feasible for pumped storage (and it destroys a local ecosystem by flooding and draining it repeatedly) and batteries need rare earth metals (not actually that rare but environmentally toxic to produce). We need O(100x) current production to fully switch away from hydrocarbons. That's a lot of reservoirs or a lot of cobalt that have to be mined.
  - pfdietz 4y ago
    Globally the potential pumped storage resource is far larger than would be needed. You might be confused by assuming the pumped hydro has to be on existing rivers. http://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/global/ http://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/global/
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Cobalt already eliminated from half of new Tesla batteries: https://electrek.co/2022/04/22/tesla-using-cobalt-free-lfp-batteries-in-half-new-cars-produced/ https://electrek.co/2022/04/22/tesla-using-cobalt-free-lfp-b...
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    False. You have been corrected on this point before. Please stop posting what you know are falsehoods.
    - paulmd 4y ago
      Can't say I remember ever interacting with you before, but either way this doesn't meet the HN standards of civility/graciousness.
  - wumpus 4y ago
    > batteries need rare earth metals "Rare earths" are a column (edit: ha ha see below) in the periodic table, and are not used in batteries. Some types of electric motors use rare earths, others do not. Here's a primer: https://blog.ucsusa.org/josh-goldman/electric-vehicles-batteries-cobalt-and-rare-earth-metals/ https://blog.ucsusa.org/josh-goldman/electric-vehicles-batte...
    - philipkglass 4y ago
      "Rare earths" are actually the lanthanides plus scandium and yttrium [1], not one column of the periodic table. Good information otherwise! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanthanide#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanthanide#Etymology
      - wumpus 4y ago
        Ha ha busted! Thanks. As an astronomer I think everything beyond He is a metal.

It’s just scale. Those batteries and pumped hydro stories seem big. Relative to your house, they are. Relative to the grid as a whole, they are small.

by creato 4y ago

It’s just scale. Those batteries and pumped hydro stories seem big. Relative to your house, they are. Relative to the grid as a whole, they are small.

ben_w 4y ago

That doesn't answer the question. What exactly is the problem that needs to be solved?

paulmd 4y ago
Scaling up capacity of the storage. There aren't that many sites that are geologically feasible for pumped storage (and it destroys a local ecosystem by flooding and draining it repeatedly) and batteries need rare earth metals (not actually that rare but environmentally toxic to produce). We need O(100x) current production to fully switch away from hydrocarbons. That's a lot of reservoirs or a lot of cobalt that have to be mined.
- pfdietz 4y ago
  Globally the potential pumped storage resource is far larger than would be needed. You might be confused by assuming the pumped hydro has to be on existing rivers. http://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/global/ http://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/global/
- ben_w 4y ago
  Cobalt already eliminated from half of new Tesla batteries: https://electrek.co/2022/04/22/tesla-using-cobalt-free-lfp-batteries-in-half-new-cars-produced/ https://electrek.co/2022/04/22/tesla-using-cobalt-free-lfp-b...
- ncmncm 4y ago
  False. You have been corrected on this point before. Please stop posting what you know are falsehoods.
  - paulmd 4y ago
    Can't say I remember ever interacting with you before, but either way this doesn't meet the HN standards of civility/graciousness.
- wumpus 4y ago
  > batteries need rare earth metals "Rare earths" are a column (edit: ha ha see below) in the periodic table, and are not used in batteries. Some types of electric motors use rare earths, others do not. Here's a primer: https://blog.ucsusa.org/josh-goldman/electric-vehicles-batteries-cobalt-and-rare-earth-metals/ https://blog.ucsusa.org/josh-goldman/electric-vehicles-batte...
  - philipkglass 4y ago
    "Rare earths" are actually the lanthanides plus scandium and yttrium [1], not one column of the periodic table. Good information otherwise! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanthanide#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanthanide#Etymology
    - wumpus 4y ago
      Ha ha busted! Thanks. As an astronomer I think everything beyond He is a metal.