4 ms·

Good thing you can pick it up and move it to other places.

by thereddaikon 4y ago

adrianN 4y ago
Good thing electricity is cheap to transmit.
- MerelyMortal 4y ago
  How does one transmit electricity across an ocean?
  - adrianN 4y ago
    Undersea cables. There are plenty between Norway and Germany for example.
    - areyousure 4y ago
      In case anyone is curious, I found this interesting background reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_power_cable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_power_cable That said, there is only one submarine power cable connecting Norway and Germany, and it's been operational for one year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NordLink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NordLink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HVDC_Europe.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HVDC_Europe.svg
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        Lots and lots are under construction. UK just committed to a 10 GW cable from Africa, that will be expanded later.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        This is the future and it will eventually create a global connected grid. DC allows the coupling of 60 Hz and 50 Hz grids without a problem too.
      - idatum 4y ago
        Comment was about undersea transmission, but I recently learned about DC transmission in the US West. Interesting advantages and trade-offs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie
- carry_bit 4y ago
  It's not though; that's one of the reasons all of the grids aren't interconnected yet. "Don't underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with tapes" also applies here. The amount of energy you can deliver by transporting fuel rods by truck/train/ship is immense.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    Transmission costs only capital. Opex for transmission is practically free.
    - carry_bit 4y ago
      And capital isn't free. With physical goods, there is already a number of existing roads, train tracks, and ports. Capital costs is why Hawaii has traditionally imported oil versus having an undersea power connection to the continental US.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        Hawaii has abundant sun and wind, and deep ocean hard by for cheap storage. When costs are all capex, the more you use, the less it costs. (And, as with nukes, the less you use, the more it costs.)
- thereddaikon 4y ago
  Transmitting power over long distances has its own problems and infrastructure costs. It isn't trivial.
  - adrianN 4y ago
    Building pipelines for oil and gas isn't trivial either but we managed to do it.
    - philwelch 4y ago
      Oil and gas pipelines do not normally leak. Power lines do leak. It's called "line loss" and it's a significant factor in power distribution.
      - adrianN 4y ago
        They do in fact leak a bit. Power losses are measured in single digit percents per 1000km. That's not nothing of course, but it's sufficiently low to transmit power from windy places to less windy places and from sunny places to less sunny places.
        ncmncm 4y ago
        When opex is free, and capex is falling exponentially, you just put in a little more power upstream.
      - paulmd 4y ago
        > Oil and gas pipelines do not normally leak. ???? > Currently, the most complete bottom-up inventory of natural gas system emissions is the 2012 U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) Greenhouse Gas Inventory (GHGI). (2) It estimates an overall system-wide methane loss rate of 6.2 Tg/yr of methane, or 1.3% of methane transported (Supporting Information (SI), Section 16) and that the transmission and storage sector (T&S) is the largest emitting segment of the natural gas industry, (2) accounting for about one-third of methane emissions. > For T&S stations that are required to report to the EPA’s Greenhouse Gas Reporting Program (GHGRP), this study estimates total emissions to be 260% [215% to 330%] of the reportable emissions for these stations, primarily due to the inclusion of emission sources that are not reported under the GHGRP rules, updated emission factors, and super-emitter emissions. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.5b01669 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.5b01669 Gas will literally bleed right through the seals at a certain rate, especially with the compressor motors, which is no different to the electrical losses from stepping voltage up/down. And this is actually a huge problem with natural gas specifically because methane is an incredibly potent greenhouse gas... around 30x as potent as CO2 over 100 years. Losing a couple percent of your methane is a big deal. That is actually what is driving the push for electric-driven heat pumps for home use... it's better to lose a little bit of electricity than to have thousands of miles of poorly-maintained residential gas distribution that even in the best case are leaking highly potent methane through seals.
- orthecreedence 4y ago

Good thing you can pick it up and move it to other places.

adrianN 4y ago

Good thing electricity is cheap to transmit.

MerelyMortal 4y ago
How does one transmit electricity across an ocean?
- adrianN 4y ago
  Undersea cables. There are plenty between Norway and Germany for example.
  - areyousure 4y ago
    In case anyone is curious, I found this interesting background reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_power_cable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_power_cable That said, there is only one submarine power cable connecting Norway and Germany, and it's been operational for one year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NordLink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NordLink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HVDC_Europe.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HVDC_Europe.svg
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      Lots and lots are under construction. UK just committed to a 10 GW cable from Africa, that will be expanded later.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      This is the future and it will eventually create a global connected grid. DC allows the coupling of 60 Hz and 50 Hz grids without a problem too.
    - idatum 4y ago
      Comment was about undersea transmission, but I recently learned about DC transmission in the US West. Interesting advantages and trade-offs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie
carry_bit 4y ago
It's not though; that's one of the reasons all of the grids aren't interconnected yet. "Don't underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with tapes" also applies here. The amount of energy you can deliver by transporting fuel rods by truck/train/ship is immense.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Transmission costs only capital. Opex for transmission is practically free.
  - carry_bit 4y ago
    And capital isn't free. With physical goods, there is already a number of existing roads, train tracks, and ports. Capital costs is why Hawaii has traditionally imported oil versus having an undersea power connection to the continental US.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      Hawaii has abundant sun and wind, and deep ocean hard by for cheap storage. When costs are all capex, the more you use, the less it costs. (And, as with nukes, the less you use, the more it costs.)
thereddaikon 4y ago
Transmitting power over long distances has its own problems and infrastructure costs. It isn't trivial.
- adrianN 4y ago
  Building pipelines for oil and gas isn't trivial either but we managed to do it.
  - philwelch 4y ago
    Oil and gas pipelines do not normally leak. Power lines do leak. It's called "line loss" and it's a significant factor in power distribution.
    - adrianN 4y ago
      They do in fact leak a bit. Power losses are measured in single digit percents per 1000km. That's not nothing of course, but it's sufficiently low to transmit power from windy places to less windy places and from sunny places to less sunny places.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        When opex is free, and capex is falling exponentially, you just put in a little more power upstream.
    - paulmd 4y ago
      > Oil and gas pipelines do not normally leak. ???? > Currently, the most complete bottom-up inventory of natural gas system emissions is the 2012 U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) Greenhouse Gas Inventory (GHGI). (2) It estimates an overall system-wide methane loss rate of 6.2 Tg/yr of methane, or 1.3% of methane transported (Supporting Information (SI), Section 16) and that the transmission and storage sector (T&S) is the largest emitting segment of the natural gas industry, (2) accounting for about one-third of methane emissions. > For T&S stations that are required to report to the EPA’s Greenhouse Gas Reporting Program (GHGRP), this study estimates total emissions to be 260% [215% to 330%] of the reportable emissions for these stations, primarily due to the inclusion of emission sources that are not reported under the GHGRP rules, updated emission factors, and super-emitter emissions. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.5b01669 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.5b01669 Gas will literally bleed right through the seals at a certain rate, especially with the compressor motors, which is no different to the electrical losses from stepping voltage up/down. And this is actually a huge problem with natural gas specifically because methane is an incredibly potent greenhouse gas... around 30x as potent as CO2 over 100 years. Losing a couple percent of your methane is a big deal. That is actually what is driving the push for electric-driven heat pumps for home use... it's better to lose a little bit of electricity than to have thousands of miles of poorly-maintained residential gas distribution that even in the best case are leaking highly potent methane through seals.
orthecreedence 4y ago