4 ms·

Why Rural Internet Is Still Terrible, Despite Billions in Federal Spending

24 points by alphabetting 4y ago

Bostonian 4y ago
There are advantages in rural areas, such as lower housing costs. I don't think the government should try to equalize the cost of internet access across areas any more that it should try to equalize housing costs. Since internet access is a consumption good for entertainment as much as it is a productivity enhancer, it should not be subsidized.
- dopidopHN 4y ago
  So, not a utility. It’s a refreshing take that I haven’t heard in years at this point. Do you know if wisely shared point of view ?
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  The problem is that it is expensive but it is absent or slow. If you've got the money to spend, carriers won't take it. Frequently the cable company will quote you something ridiculous like $50,000 to do the install, but it is really a bluff to make you go away. If you do have the money they'll make up some excuses and you'll find service is not available at any price. Sure, the Democrats are way too comfortable with subsidizing things, but the problem is not that internet service is too expensive, it's that carriers have refused to upgrade DSL networks.
PaulHoule 4y ago
The Republicans don't want to do anything, even though it is their own constituents who are suffering. The Democrats somehow think they are channeling FDR by giving out a few billion dollars in a lottery, again and again and again. They don't seem to understand how it looks to people who see the spending but still have slow internet. You solve a problem like not by setting a $X billion budget arbitrary but by planning to get it done, setting a budget appropriate to the scale, and getting it done. Another phrase that hurts is "technology agnostic". There is nothing agnostic about it at all, it is really advocating fixed wireless and DSL, technologies that aren't adequate to the task. DSL is a great technology for a place like Singapore or South Korea but rural areas in the US need the long range of optic fiber. It shows how far we've fallen that at one point we ran electric wires and telephone wires to people's houses but today we can't run a simple strand of fiber.
- smileybarry 4y ago
  > It shows how far we've fallen that at one point we ran electric wires and telephone wires to people's houses but today we can't run a simple strand of fiber. It's less "can't" and more "won't". CenturyLink and co. make a lot more from reusing and overpricing very expensive 5Mb DSL instead of rolling out fiber, and whenever the fed wants to push fiber rollout, they take the funding and "may not meet" deadlines[1]. Same reason some ISPs ask some for hundreds of thousands of dollars[2][3][4] when they're "out of reach" from their network, even when the house nextdoor isn't (can't find that one now). Sometimes that amount is for cable or DSL, not even fiber. Disclaimer: I'm not American, but I followed these US telco stories for a few years. 1: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/01/centurylink-frontier-took-fcc-cash-failed-to-deploy-all-required-broadband/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/01/centurylink-fron... 2: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/09/man-builds-house-then-finds-out-cable-internet-will-cost-117000/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/09/man-b... 3: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/want-fiber-internet-thatll-be-383500-isp-tells-farm-owner/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/want-... 4: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/01/jared-mauch-didnt-have-good-broadband-so-he-built-his-own-fiber-isp/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/01/jared...
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    Lester Thurow in his 1980 book https://www.amazon.com/Zero-Sum-Society-Distribution-Possibilities-Change/dp/0465085881 https://www.amazon.com/Zero-Sum-Society-Distribution-Possibi... talks about numerous problems we experience today, such as windfall profits in the petroleum industry, but the most interesting bit in my mind was the fall of the steel industry in the US which based on the Open Hearth Furnace and the Bessmer process. Japan and Germany had there obsolete factories blown up so they switched to the newly developed Basic Oxygen process which was faster, cheaper and produced superior steel. US Steel lobbied to get protectionism, but this had a negative effect on other parts of US industry. For instance US automakers were making expensive and inferior cars out of expensive and inferior steel. The problem wasn't that the US Steel industry had to invest in new steelmaking capacity, but rather it had to disinvest in the old technology because so long as it could make profits without investing it wouldn't invest. This character played a role in it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Mellon_Scaife https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Mellon_Scaife and he later got famous for bankrolling a campaign to harry Bill Clinton when he was in office. Oddly Bill Clinton became friends with RMS later because RMS let him "triangulate", so long as he could keep his head above water he could do nothing for leftists and have them blame the Republicans and not Clinton. If the phone lines just disappeared it would be perfectly profitable to roll out a fiber network, but so long as the copper wires exist phone companies have every reason to postpone copper retirement indefinitely.
bumblebritches5 4y ago
teleforce 4y ago
This article is focusing in the US demographic but the reality it is a global problems and in the developing countries the problem is even worse due to the projects for rural communities are usually political and corruption magnets. Having said that it is a genuine problem for computer science, computer and communication engineering not unlike the Riemann Hypothesis for the mathematicians. Whoever solved this particular problem with an affordable and sustainable solutions (not solely on govt budgets) should deserve the Nobel prizes, Field medals,Turing awards, etc.
- fundad 4y ago
  I think the US is unique in its size and how much land there is between all of these rural areas. I wouldn't even call them towns. If there was ever once economic activity somewhere, there remains a town charter which comes with the right to tax and operate a police department. The police cover-up in Uvalde, TX shows the danger of this situation.
supertrope 4y ago
Infrastructure gets exponentially more expensive as resident density falls because fixed costs are spread over fewer subscribers. $50,000/mi in a city is fine since it’s useful for hundreds or thousands of people. $20,000/mi in a rural area might only hook up three households. See page 12 of https://www.ustelecom.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Rural-Broadband-Economics-A-Review-of-Rural-Subsidies-final-paper-1.pdf https://www.ustelecom.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Rural-B...

24 points by alphabetting 4y ago

There are advantages in rural areas, such as lower housing costs. I don't think the government should try to equalize the cost of internet access across areas any more that it should try to equalize housing costs. Since internet access is a consumption good for entertainment as much as it is a productivity enhancer, it should not be subsidized.

dopidopHN 4y ago
So, not a utility. It’s a refreshing take that I haven’t heard in years at this point. Do you know if wisely shared point of view ?
PaulHoule 4y ago
The problem is that it is expensive but it is absent or slow. If you've got the money to spend, carriers won't take it. Frequently the cable company will quote you something ridiculous like $50,000 to do the install, but it is really a bluff to make you go away. If you do have the money they'll make up some excuses and you'll find service is not available at any price. Sure, the Democrats are way too comfortable with subsidizing things, but the problem is not that internet service is too expensive, it's that carriers have refused to upgrade DSL networks.

PaulHoule 4y ago

The Republicans don't want to do anything, even though it is their own constituents who are suffering. The Democrats somehow think they are channeling FDR by giving out a few billion dollars in a lottery, again and again and again. They don't seem to understand how it looks to people who see the spending but still have slow internet. You solve a problem like not by setting a $X billion budget arbitrary but by planning to get it done, setting a budget appropriate to the scale, and getting it done. Another phrase that hurts is "technology agnostic". There is nothing agnostic about it at all, it is really advocating fixed wireless and DSL, technologies that aren't adequate to the task. DSL is a great technology for a place like Singapore or South Korea but rural areas in the US need the long range of optic fiber. It shows how far we've fallen that at one point we ran electric wires and telephone wires to people's houses but today we can't run a simple strand of fiber.

smileybarry 4y ago
> It shows how far we've fallen that at one point we ran electric wires and telephone wires to people's houses but today we can't run a simple strand of fiber. It's less "can't" and more "won't". CenturyLink and co. make a lot more from reusing and overpricing very expensive 5Mb DSL instead of rolling out fiber, and whenever the fed wants to push fiber rollout, they take the funding and "may not meet" deadlines[1]. Same reason some ISPs ask some for hundreds of thousands of dollars[2][3][4] when they're "out of reach" from their network, even when the house nextdoor isn't (can't find that one now). Sometimes that amount is for cable or DSL, not even fiber. Disclaimer: I'm not American, but I followed these US telco stories for a few years. 1: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/01/centurylink-frontier-took-fcc-cash-failed-to-deploy-all-required-broadband/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/01/centurylink-fron... 2: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/09/man-builds-house-then-finds-out-cable-internet-will-cost-117000/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/09/man-b... 3: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/want-fiber-internet-thatll-be-383500-isp-tells-farm-owner/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/want-... 4: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/01/jared-mauch-didnt-have-good-broadband-so-he-built-his-own-fiber-isp/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/01/jared...
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  Lester Thurow in his 1980 book https://www.amazon.com/Zero-Sum-Society-Distribution-Possibilities-Change/dp/0465085881 https://www.amazon.com/Zero-Sum-Society-Distribution-Possibi... talks about numerous problems we experience today, such as windfall profits in the petroleum industry, but the most interesting bit in my mind was the fall of the steel industry in the US which based on the Open Hearth Furnace and the Bessmer process. Japan and Germany had there obsolete factories blown up so they switched to the newly developed Basic Oxygen process which was faster, cheaper and produced superior steel. US Steel lobbied to get protectionism, but this had a negative effect on other parts of US industry. For instance US automakers were making expensive and inferior cars out of expensive and inferior steel. The problem wasn't that the US Steel industry had to invest in new steelmaking capacity, but rather it had to disinvest in the old technology because so long as it could make profits without investing it wouldn't invest. This character played a role in it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Mellon_Scaife https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Mellon_Scaife and he later got famous for bankrolling a campaign to harry Bill Clinton when he was in office. Oddly Bill Clinton became friends with RMS later because RMS let him "triangulate", so long as he could keep his head above water he could do nothing for leftists and have them blame the Republicans and not Clinton. If the phone lines just disappeared it would be perfectly profitable to roll out a fiber network, but so long as the copper wires exist phone companies have every reason to postpone copper retirement indefinitely.

bumblebritches5 4y ago

teleforce 4y ago

This article is focusing in the US demographic but the reality it is a global problems and in the developing countries the problem is even worse due to the projects for rural communities are usually political and corruption magnets. Having said that it is a genuine problem for computer science, computer and communication engineering not unlike the Riemann Hypothesis for the mathematicians. Whoever solved this particular problem with an affordable and sustainable solutions (not solely on govt budgets) should deserve the Nobel prizes, Field medals,Turing awards, etc.

fundad 4y ago
I think the US is unique in its size and how much land there is between all of these rural areas. I wouldn't even call them towns. If there was ever once economic activity somewhere, there remains a town charter which comes with the right to tax and operate a police department. The police cover-up in Uvalde, TX shows the danger of this situation.

supertrope 4y ago

Infrastructure gets exponentially more expensive as resident density falls because fixed costs are spread over fewer subscribers. $50,000/mi in a city is fine since it’s useful for hundreds or thousands of people. $20,000/mi in a rural area might only hook up three households. See page 12 of https://www.ustelecom.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Rural-Broadband-Economics-A-Review-of-Rural-Subsidies-final-paper-1.pdf https://www.ustelecom.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Rural-B...