4 ms·

what is america without gas and oil?

by throwaway71271 4y ago

Workaccount2 4y ago
A tech and finance powerhouse.
- throwaway71271 4y ago
  neither of those exist without gas and oil :)
  - silverspoonin 4y ago
    Neither of those exist without energy, which is a fine distinction from "gas and oil".
- spurgu 4y ago
  Tech at the moment sure, but there's nothing that stops the geographical location from shifting. There are skilled IT people around the world, there just aren't that many tech hubs like Silicon Valley. Finance? Remind me again how much debt the US has and how close it was to defaulting last year (saved by being forced to raise the debt ceiling yet again)? Things aren't looking much better right now.
  - bogomipz 4y ago
    >"Tech at the moment sure, but there's nothing that stops the geographical location from shifting. There are skilled IT people around the world, there just aren't that many tech hubs like Silicon Valley." Except that tech in the US is also NYC, Seattle, Austin and Boston too. It outgrew the SV hub years ago now. Those locations are the results of location shifting. >"Finance? Remind me again how much debt the US has and how close it was to defaulting last year (saved by being forced to raise the debt ceiling yet again)? Things aren't looking much better right now." "Finance" is used to describe the industry of and around investment banking. It is very different and distinct from the context of the US Treasury which you seem to be conflating. Further the US was never even close to actually defaulting on its debt last year. What happened in October was a bit of political theater around something known as the "debt ceiling." This is simply the agreed upon amount that congress says the US can have outstanding. This is very different from sovereign defaults that result from not having the means to pay. There is a primer here [1]. It's also unclear what you mean by "Things aren't looking much better right now." Despite experiencing the same stubborn inflation as the rest of the globe, the US has had something of a miracle recovery since the beginning of the pandemic. The unemployment rate as of May was 3.6% which is about what it was before the pandemic. There's been many other bright spots as well [2]. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/debt-ceiling.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/debt-ceiling.asp [2] https://www.thebalance.com/how-is-the-economy-doing-3306046 https://www.thebalance.com/how-is-the-economy-doing-3306046
  - MomoXenosaga 4y ago
    Obviously which is why smart countries diversify and constantly adapt to changing circumstances. The real capital of a nation is its people.
- iancmceachern 4y ago
  And entertainment
Arubis 4y ago
Less of an invasion risk.
toss1 4y ago
About 92% other businesses. Oil and NatGas account for about 8% of the US economy (and that's the best case figure that the American Petroleum Institute can come up with)[1]. US exports are trivial. In contrast, Russia's exports are 68% Oil and NatGas. [2] Of course, for now, Oil and Natgas are key strategic components to every economy. That does not mean that supply and demand mean the same thing for every economy. [1] https://www.api.org/news-policy-and-issues/taxes/oil-and-natural-gas-contribution-to-us-economy-fact-sheet https://www.api.org/news-policy-and-issues/taxes/oil-and-nat... [2] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=17231 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=17231
- spurgu 4y ago
  That's the same argument as saying food is only 4% the economy. Try taking food out of the equation and see how the rest fares.
  - silverspoonin 4y ago
    I think you are confusing export with consumption. Russia's fossil fuel production is mostly slated for export, and thus they are very sensitive to the international demand for said fossil fuels. In comparison, US production is mostly slated for internal use, so international demand does not impact the economy as severely.
    - spurgu 4y ago
      Yeah (as sibling poster pointed out) I guess that it was more of a distraction point from throwaway. I just read and thought of it in broader terms of oil and gas being super important to any modern civilization. What you say is true though, short term, but I think I might still rather be in Russia's position in terms of fossil fuels than that of the US, when we look at things long term. What Russia has the option of doing - which is also being discussed elsewhere in this thread - is using those resources domestically, to grow/develop its own industries and (currently dwindling) population. In fact that's what they're being pushed to do by the sanctions (as they have been developing their agriculture as a response to previous sanctions). I've been really really skeptic of the sanctions (to put it mildly) since the beginning. They will always find ways to sell their resources (if they want to).
spurgu 4y ago
Modern civilization is nothing without gas and oil.
stevenicr 4y ago
while I can see how your statement is true-ish - and maybe meant as snarky rebuttal or something, maybe funny - sure. I think the GP was meaning that without being able to extract and sell gas and oil, Russia would be nothing compared to what it is today... I would guess that if the whole world shunned oil / gas and went electric only by the end of the year, that Russia would not have a lot of other industries to make up for lost sales, and the whole country would be what, more than 50% poorer or something? With not much else to sell to make up for the lost export money. (I am guessing from very little study) indeed it would be catastrophic for the US and many other places if it were not for oil and gas today and tomorrow - but that was not the point of the conversation direction at the time I believe.

what is america without gas and oil?

Workaccount2 4y ago

A tech and finance powerhouse.

throwaway71271 4y ago
neither of those exist without gas and oil :)
- silverspoonin 4y ago
  Neither of those exist without energy, which is a fine distinction from "gas and oil".
spurgu 4y ago
Tech at the moment sure, but there's nothing that stops the geographical location from shifting. There are skilled IT people around the world, there just aren't that many tech hubs like Silicon Valley. Finance? Remind me again how much debt the US has and how close it was to defaulting last year (saved by being forced to raise the debt ceiling yet again)? Things aren't looking much better right now.
- bogomipz 4y ago
  >"Tech at the moment sure, but there's nothing that stops the geographical location from shifting. There are skilled IT people around the world, there just aren't that many tech hubs like Silicon Valley." Except that tech in the US is also NYC, Seattle, Austin and Boston too. It outgrew the SV hub years ago now. Those locations are the results of location shifting. >"Finance? Remind me again how much debt the US has and how close it was to defaulting last year (saved by being forced to raise the debt ceiling yet again)? Things aren't looking much better right now." "Finance" is used to describe the industry of and around investment banking. It is very different and distinct from the context of the US Treasury which you seem to be conflating. Further the US was never even close to actually defaulting on its debt last year. What happened in October was a bit of political theater around something known as the "debt ceiling." This is simply the agreed upon amount that congress says the US can have outstanding. This is very different from sovereign defaults that result from not having the means to pay. There is a primer here [1]. It's also unclear what you mean by "Things aren't looking much better right now." Despite experiencing the same stubborn inflation as the rest of the globe, the US has had something of a miracle recovery since the beginning of the pandemic. The unemployment rate as of May was 3.6% which is about what it was before the pandemic. There's been many other bright spots as well [2]. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/debt-ceiling.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/debt-ceiling.asp [2] https://www.thebalance.com/how-is-the-economy-doing-3306046 https://www.thebalance.com/how-is-the-economy-doing-3306046
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  Obviously which is why smart countries diversify and constantly adapt to changing circumstances. The real capital of a nation is its people.
iancmceachern 4y ago
And entertainment

Arubis 4y ago

Less of an invasion risk.

toss1 4y ago

About 92% other businesses. Oil and NatGas account for about 8% of the US economy (and that's the best case figure that the American Petroleum Institute can come up with)[1]. US exports are trivial. In contrast, Russia's exports are 68% Oil and NatGas. [2] Of course, for now, Oil and Natgas are key strategic components to every economy. That does not mean that supply and demand mean the same thing for every economy. [1] https://www.api.org/news-policy-and-issues/taxes/oil-and-natural-gas-contribution-to-us-economy-fact-sheet https://www.api.org/news-policy-and-issues/taxes/oil-and-nat... [2] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=17231 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=17231

spurgu 4y ago
That's the same argument as saying food is only 4% the economy. Try taking food out of the equation and see how the rest fares.
- silverspoonin 4y ago
  I think you are confusing export with consumption. Russia's fossil fuel production is mostly slated for export, and thus they are very sensitive to the international demand for said fossil fuels. In comparison, US production is mostly slated for internal use, so international demand does not impact the economy as severely.
  - spurgu 4y ago
    Yeah (as sibling poster pointed out) I guess that it was more of a distraction point from throwaway. I just read and thought of it in broader terms of oil and gas being super important to any modern civilization. What you say is true though, short term, but I think I might still rather be in Russia's position in terms of fossil fuels than that of the US, when we look at things long term. What Russia has the option of doing - which is also being discussed elsewhere in this thread - is using those resources domestically, to grow/develop its own industries and (currently dwindling) population. In fact that's what they're being pushed to do by the sanctions (as they have been developing their agriculture as a response to previous sanctions). I've been really really skeptic of the sanctions (to put it mildly) since the beginning. They will always find ways to sell their resources (if they want to).

spurgu 4y ago

Modern civilization is nothing without gas and oil.

stevenicr 4y ago

while I can see how your statement is true-ish - and maybe meant as snarky rebuttal or something, maybe funny - sure. I think the GP was meaning that without being able to extract and sell gas and oil, Russia would be nothing compared to what it is today... I would guess that if the whole world shunned oil / gas and went electric only by the end of the year, that Russia would not have a lot of other industries to make up for lost sales, and the whole country would be what, more than 50% poorer or something? With not much else to sell to make up for the lost export money. (I am guessing from very little study) indeed it would be catastrophic for the US and many other places if it were not for oil and gas today and tomorrow - but that was not the point of the conversation direction at the time I believe.