7 ms·

Having lived through the MS/IE6 era of being the monopoly web browser, and effectively determined and held back web standards for a long time, it's bittersweet

Having lived through the MS/IE6 era of being the monopoly web browser, and effectively determined and held back web standards for a long time, it's bittersweet that we now have Google/Chrome era. At least it's not hard wired into the OS and we're not going through another era of mega-corp hard wiring browsers into their OSes any more. Oh wait.

calvinmorrison 4y ago
Say what you will (I am a sole firefox user for a decade +), at least chrome keeps improving and having development. Now that the web is more of a "VM in a window for applications", it's _not_ like the IE era of no updates, buggy crap, un-debuggable, etc.
- leeter 4y ago
  Yes and no, Chrome does what's good for google with no regard for most of the rest. To make it worse google goes out of their way to break compatibility with other browsers when it comes to their stuff. It's really no different and in many ways just as bad. The only major difference is google's incentives do align with innovation for web; insofar as it furthers advertising revenue for google. https://www.developer-tech.com/news/2019/apr/17/mozilla-google-firefox-boost-chrome/ https://www.developer-tech.com/news/2019/apr/17/mozilla-goog...
  - calvinmorrison 4y ago
    I don't really care if there is only one implementation of Java, or if there is one implementation of "Web". It's all VMs to me.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- zaarn 4y ago
  No, instead it's a world of "works ~~best~~ only in Google Chrome" where other browser engines have no chance to claw back marketshare.
hda111 4y ago
Look like browsers can only exist as monopoly.
- fartcannon 4y ago
  Firefox rose to power because people like you and me used it. We told people to use it. This can happen again, we just need to collectively stop feeding these monopoly wannabes.
  - tiborsaas 4y ago
    If you don't feed the wannabes then how do you dethrone the actual monopolies? :)
    - fartcannon 4y ago
      Ha, touché.
  - continuational 4y ago
    Firefox was also clearly a better user experience at the time, which made it much easier to convince people to switch. I switched back to Firefox a while ago for ideological reasons, but the majority of people are not going to switch to something that is more or less the same, just without their bookmarks, passwords and history.
    - mostlysimilar 4y ago
      All major browsers have a dead-simple import tool, and they even asks you if you want to do it the first time you open them.
      - fartcannon 4y ago
        Yeah, plus people use whatever they think is the best. If you're an authority on the subject, tell them.
  - deleted 4y ago
darkwinx 4y ago
We have OS hardwired into browser now.
- SadTrombone 4y ago
  That's their point.
danielvaughn 4y ago
Now we have Safari...
- Tijdreiziger 4y ago
  ...and Chromebooks. And Windows reminds you to use Edge at every opportunity.
- samwillis 4y ago
  The situation with Safari is nothing like what we had back in the IE6 days. It was like developing for multiple platforms, not just a multiple browsers. Thats not to say Safari isn’t dragging it’s heals, but it looks like Apple are finally ramping up development speed. I gather they have been expanding the Safari dev team, and the latest announcements at WWDC look really good. I actually use Safari as my primary browser, I prefer it (as a user) to Chrome. Although for debugging Chrome dev tools are better, I probably open it 2-3 times a day to check stuff, but never leave it running.
  - danielvaughn 4y ago
    It's not as bad in some aspects, but the iOS ecosystem is essentially another platform. My current client has an app that's built on Ionic, and the sheer amount of bullshit I've had to deal with, specific to Mobile Safari, is insane.
  - JohnTHaller 4y ago
    In at least one way, it's worse. You have a large percentage of users (everyone on iOS) who is stuck using a single rendering engine (Safari's) and locked out of installing another one. Although you can install Firefox, Chrome, etc on iOS, it's still Safari's webkit engine underneath.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - mtomweb 4y ago
    In a lot of ways it's worse, Microsoft never banned the competition. It's utterly outrageous that Apple has been able to get away with such clear anti-competitive behaviour for this long. There's only one reason Web Apps are not currently viable on mobile, and unless you're down in the trenches building these apps these issues are invisible.
johndfsgdgdfg 4y ago
When I clicked on this thread I was thinking when this thread will turn into Google bashing. This is the top comment. I am not disappointed.
mrtksn 4y ago
Do you remember how we got into the IE6 situation? IE was actually very innovative, did stuff like AJAX before everyone else and the developers adopted the ways of IE. Websites did not work well on other browsers, every website had a disclaimer at the bottom: Works best in IE. Now I see similar situation with Chrome and gives me goosebumps. Some people say that Safari is the new IE but I think they got it wrong, I think the new IE is Google Chrome. IE become bad when Microsoft dropped the ball and made it into a browser with a reputation to crash all the time and bring down Windows with it. IE6 was hated by the developers because it had the largest userbase but had non-standart features, which meant that CSS and HTML and JS had to be written in a way to accommodate IE and Mozilla. Today Chrome is very good but if Google takes something from the Microsoft playbook, we will be screwed. Some already say that Chrome is not what it used to be and Google no longer abides by the "do no evil" motto. They are even notorious to favour their own services, i.e. if you sign in into a Google website, Chrome treats that website differently than the rest, assumes that session as the browser account.
- xtracto 4y ago
  IE6 also had the infamous ActiveX plugin architecture, which was a security hell, but were way better than Java Applets. Several pages with the "Works in IE" used ActiveX plugins
- traveler01 4y ago
  I don't see the issue with Chrome. The new IE it's obviously Safari and it's in the worst way possible since in iOS you're actually forced to use it. Apple is also being accused of breaking their own browser to force you using their AppStore. Don't see Google doing that.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    Apple forces you to use the rendering engine, not the browser. You can download Chrome to your iPhone. Anyway, that's not the point. IE wasn't bad because it was a shitty browser. It was bad because it had features that other browsers did not have and it was very popular because it was very innovative and it was heavily marketed. This resulted in websites being made for IE only, which resulted in a lockdown of huge userbase that even Microsoft couldn't get rid of once decided to get rid of IE. Safari is nothing like that and there's no Safari lockdown. On the other hand, Chrome does have non standard features and huge market share, forcing web developers to make everything for Chrome. That's exactly like IE. If anything, Apple's refusal to allow the Chrome engine into iOS is the only thing that keeps us from complete lockdown into Chrome.
otabdeveloper4 4y ago
> At least it's not hard wired into the OS and we're not going through another era of mega-corp hard wiring browsers into their OSes any more. Welcome to the most popular OS in the world, called 'Android'.
eastbound 4y ago
Going ahead, the only OS war I’m afraid of is: - A GDPR-style mandate to make cloud apps secure by certifying all libraries and upstream authors that run your stack, down to the OS, - Thus cloud providers providing “Debian, only for amateur purposes, PII forbidden”, - And “Amazon Linux, certified GDPR III, all upstream identified.” That would be the end of free software. But at the same time, it would be the only reasonable move from EU, it drives me crazy that websites all use random NPM modules, half of them written by Russians we’re at war with.
grishka 4y ago
I'm not sure which is worse. The problem with Chrome is that Google isn't content with the web being a document platform. They want it to be this all-encompassing OS-like amalgamation of worst technologies possible that's never complete. This endless feature creep with WebUSB, WebMIDI, WebBluetooth, WebNFC... No, it's not "cool" that I'm for some reason able to install a beta version of Android on my phone using a macro in a hypertext document. In the IE era, if you wanted a "web application", you simply used Flash. There was a clear separation between the document and the application. It was nice. I miss it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

calvinmorrison 4y ago

Say what you will (I am a sole firefox user for a decade +), at least chrome keeps improving and having development. Now that the web is more of a "VM in a window for applications", it's _not_ like the IE era of no updates, buggy crap, un-debuggable, etc.

leeter 4y ago
Yes and no, Chrome does what's good for google with no regard for most of the rest. To make it worse google goes out of their way to break compatibility with other browsers when it comes to their stuff. It's really no different and in many ways just as bad. The only major difference is google's incentives do align with innovation for web; insofar as it furthers advertising revenue for google. https://www.developer-tech.com/news/2019/apr/17/mozilla-google-firefox-boost-chrome/ https://www.developer-tech.com/news/2019/apr/17/mozilla-goog...
- calvinmorrison 4y ago
  I don't really care if there is only one implementation of Java, or if there is one implementation of "Web". It's all VMs to me.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zaarn 4y ago
No, instead it's a world of "works ~~best~~ only in Google Chrome" where other browser engines have no chance to claw back marketshare.

hda111 4y ago

Look like browsers can only exist as monopoly.

fartcannon 4y ago
Firefox rose to power because people like you and me used it. We told people to use it. This can happen again, we just need to collectively stop feeding these monopoly wannabes.
- tiborsaas 4y ago
  If you don't feed the wannabes then how do you dethrone the actual monopolies? :)
  - fartcannon 4y ago
    Ha, touché.
- continuational 4y ago
  Firefox was also clearly a better user experience at the time, which made it much easier to convince people to switch. I switched back to Firefox a while ago for ideological reasons, but the majority of people are not going to switch to something that is more or less the same, just without their bookmarks, passwords and history.
  - mostlysimilar 4y ago
    All major browsers have a dead-simple import tool, and they even asks you if you want to do it the first time you open them.
    - fartcannon 4y ago
      Yeah, plus people use whatever they think is the best. If you're an authority on the subject, tell them.
- deleted 4y ago

darkwinx 4y ago

We have OS hardwired into browser now.

SadTrombone 4y ago
That's their point.

danielvaughn 4y ago

Now we have Safari...

Tijdreiziger 4y ago
...and Chromebooks. And Windows reminds you to use Edge at every opportunity.
samwillis 4y ago
The situation with Safari is nothing like what we had back in the IE6 days. It was like developing for multiple platforms, not just a multiple browsers. Thats not to say Safari isn’t dragging it’s heals, but it looks like Apple are finally ramping up development speed. I gather they have been expanding the Safari dev team, and the latest announcements at WWDC look really good. I actually use Safari as my primary browser, I prefer it (as a user) to Chrome. Although for debugging Chrome dev tools are better, I probably open it 2-3 times a day to check stuff, but never leave it running.
- danielvaughn 4y ago
  It's not as bad in some aspects, but the iOS ecosystem is essentially another platform. My current client has an app that's built on Ionic, and the sheer amount of bullshit I've had to deal with, specific to Mobile Safari, is insane.
- JohnTHaller 4y ago
  In at least one way, it's worse. You have a large percentage of users (everyone on iOS) who is stuck using a single rendering engine (Safari's) and locked out of installing another one. Although you can install Firefox, Chrome, etc on iOS, it's still Safari's webkit engine underneath.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- mtomweb 4y ago
  In a lot of ways it's worse, Microsoft never banned the competition. It's utterly outrageous that Apple has been able to get away with such clear anti-competitive behaviour for this long. There's only one reason Web Apps are not currently viable on mobile, and unless you're down in the trenches building these apps these issues are invisible.

johndfsgdgdfg 4y ago

When I clicked on this thread I was thinking when this thread will turn into Google bashing. This is the top comment. I am not disappointed.

mrtksn 4y ago

Do you remember how we got into the IE6 situation? IE was actually very innovative, did stuff like AJAX before everyone else and the developers adopted the ways of IE. Websites did not work well on other browsers, every website had a disclaimer at the bottom: Works best in IE. Now I see similar situation with Chrome and gives me goosebumps. Some people say that Safari is the new IE but I think they got it wrong, I think the new IE is Google Chrome. IE become bad when Microsoft dropped the ball and made it into a browser with a reputation to crash all the time and bring down Windows with it. IE6 was hated by the developers because it had the largest userbase but had non-standart features, which meant that CSS and HTML and JS had to be written in a way to accommodate IE and Mozilla. Today Chrome is very good but if Google takes something from the Microsoft playbook, we will be screwed. Some already say that Chrome is not what it used to be and Google no longer abides by the "do no evil" motto. They are even notorious to favour their own services, i.e. if you sign in into a Google website, Chrome treats that website differently than the rest, assumes that session as the browser account.

xtracto 4y ago
IE6 also had the infamous ActiveX plugin architecture, which was a security hell, but were way better than Java Applets. Several pages with the "Works in IE" used ActiveX plugins
traveler01 4y ago
I don't see the issue with Chrome. The new IE it's obviously Safari and it's in the worst way possible since in iOS you're actually forced to use it. Apple is also being accused of breaking their own browser to force you using their AppStore. Don't see Google doing that.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  Apple forces you to use the rendering engine, not the browser. You can download Chrome to your iPhone. Anyway, that's not the point. IE wasn't bad because it was a shitty browser. It was bad because it had features that other browsers did not have and it was very popular because it was very innovative and it was heavily marketed. This resulted in websites being made for IE only, which resulted in a lockdown of huge userbase that even Microsoft couldn't get rid of once decided to get rid of IE. Safari is nothing like that and there's no Safari lockdown. On the other hand, Chrome does have non standard features and huge market share, forcing web developers to make everything for Chrome. That's exactly like IE. If anything, Apple's refusal to allow the Chrome engine into iOS is the only thing that keeps us from complete lockdown into Chrome.

otabdeveloper4 4y ago

> At least it's not hard wired into the OS and we're not going through another era of mega-corp hard wiring browsers into their OSes any more. Welcome to the most popular OS in the world, called 'Android'.

eastbound 4y ago

Going ahead, the only OS war I’m afraid of is: - A GDPR-style mandate to make cloud apps secure by certifying all libraries and upstream authors that run your stack, down to the OS, - Thus cloud providers providing “Debian, only for amateur purposes, PII forbidden”, - And “Amazon Linux, certified GDPR III, all upstream identified.” That would be the end of free software. But at the same time, it would be the only reasonable move from EU, it drives me crazy that websites all use random NPM modules, half of them written by Russians we’re at war with.

grishka 4y ago

I'm not sure which is worse. The problem with Chrome is that Google isn't content with the web being a document platform. They want it to be this all-encompassing OS-like amalgamation of worst technologies possible that's never complete. This endless feature creep with WebUSB, WebMIDI, WebBluetooth, WebNFC... No, it's not "cool" that I'm for some reason able to install a beta version of Android on my phone using a macro in a hypertext document. In the IE era, if you wanted a "web application", you simply used Flash. There was a clear separation between the document and the application. It was nice. I miss it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]