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> Yes, the foreskin doesn't grow back Lip and tongue ties don't grow back. Neither do teeth. Parents remove their kids' body parts if they think it's best for t

> Yes, the foreskin doesn't grow back Lip and tongue ties don't grow back. Neither do teeth. Parents remove their kids' body parts if they think it's best for them. Are straight teeth healthy or just aesthetically pleasing? Is clear speech healthy or just valued in our culture? > Yes, because travelling through the birth canal is required to live, and doesn't affect sex in later life. Also, it doesn't result in any amputations. How does circumcision affect sex in later life? If circumcision is amputation, what is removing an unsightly birthmark? Or as I've said, teeth, extra skin in one's mouth... > We do. There's a ton of nerve endings there. Slicing of a particularly sensitive area (due to the concentration of nerve endings there) is going to be painful. Being birthed causes extreme trauma. That's why doctors measure a baby's oxygen and heart rate. So clearly some amount of pain is worth it if the gain outweighs the pain, no? Then you have to ask what is gained through ritual circumcision. The gain is religious and cultural value, so it's hard to measure precisely. But, you know, Christians give alcohol to kids every Sunday and no one's complaining. > If you want to do it, you need to show some evidence that it is not, not throw your hands in the air and say "well, we don't know"). I'm suggesting that we consider not everything that seems obvious is in fact obvious. Should I keep my kid from having routine blood drawn or vaccination because the needle hurts? Stop clipping their nails or cutting their hair? These are all cultural practices, there's nothing intrinsically good about grooming in this way. > I think your are deluding yourself - few doctors visits or trips to the park results in cutting off a very sensitive part of the body. I am trying not to delude myself. I am trying to clarify one thing for myself and one thing for others. For others, I want them to understand oral suction during a bris is basically unheard of outside of a fringe group. For myself, I'm trying to clarify if circumcision results in long term pain (psychological or physical) > It is a fairly easy topic. I think we agree. As I said, it should be easy to talk about and yet there are multiple factors one must weigh. This makes it compicated, but I'm happy we're talking about it. > The question of "Should we amputate a part of a newborns body, one that affects future enjoyment, and known to be incredibly sensitive" is an easy one to answer. I think the question is based on a false premise. How can one measure the joy of sex, and even if you could how would you say "this person gets less out of sex than if he had his foreskin." How can you say what the same person would feel in a hypothetical scenario? I'll just point out this very argument dates back to antiquity. Plutarch has a piece about Jews and discusses ritual circumcision - iirc he takes the stance that circumcision leads to more sexual activity and depravity because the penis is always uncovered. Greeks and Romans thought uncircumcised penises were vulgar, gross, and a sign of overt sexuality. So I would be fascinated to understand the opposite position, which you put forth, that circumcised men get less joy from sex.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
> I'm suggesting that we consider not everything that seems obvious is in fact obvious. Should I keep my kid from having routine blood drawn or vaccination because the needle hurts? Stop clipping their nails or cutting their hair? These are all cultural practices, there's nothing intrinsically good about grooming in this way. How could one have raised 3 kids and write there is nothing intrinsically good about clipping nails? Or even done manual labor? It is one of the most basic tasks a parent has to do with a baby unless they want a baby that makes itself bleed all the time. Cutting nails is just a practice, it has obvious practical benefits. And comparing blood tests, vaccines, and cutting hair to genital mutilation makes me think either you are trolling or our realities are so incongruent that there is no purpose in conversing.
- natroniks 4y ago
  I'm not trolling. I'm trying to give examples of different degrees of mutilation to understand where circumcision fits on the scale of "accepted body alteration" and "unacceptable body alteration." Is circumcising a newborn much different from having orthodontics placed in an 12 year old's mouth? That is, dental work that is done for purely aesthetic purposes. Or what about a frenectomy on a baby, or a toddler? While a frenectomy function to improve clarity of speech, I would argue clarity of speech is aesthetic in an aural sense. People with a lisp are understood, they can communicate, but their speech isn't considered as "pretty sounding" as those without a lisp. Is a frenectomy controversial in your opinion? If so, you're in the minority. If not, why is it ok to snip out part of a kid's mouth but not ok to snip off part of a kid's penis? A part that serves no benefit, mind you. Unless foreskin does provide a benefit that I'm unaware of.
  - jl6 4y ago
    > Unless foreskin does provide a benefit that I'm unaware of. The lack of willingness of uncircumcised adult men to be circumcised should be a huge clue that there is in fact a benefit to bodily integrity.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    The distinction is about the purpose of altering someone else’s body. Is there a medical benefit or not? If not, then the answer is leave the other person’s body alone. I do not know enough about tongue ties or frenectomy’s to comment. I have heard it is over diagnosed and might be done just so parents can feel something was done, but again, I have not delved into it much. I have delved into cutting off foreskins, and that one, as you even claimed, is all about tribal affiliation. In other words, the procedure is not being done for the medical benefit of the person. At minimum, you would be causing unnecessary pain and risk of infection, but while I am not a urologist, I do know that foreskins have a role in providing lubrication. Maybe it is mostly inconsequential. But that is irrelevant to the principle that people should be in control of their own body as much as possible. Obviously there is a ton that will not be, but cutting off the foreskin on penis to signify which tribe the male belongs to is a pretty easy one to conclude that violates that principle.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

> I'm suggesting that we consider not everything that seems obvious is in fact obvious. Should I keep my kid from having routine blood drawn or vaccination because the needle hurts? Stop clipping their nails or cutting their hair? These are all cultural practices, there's nothing intrinsically good about grooming in this way. How could one have raised 3 kids and write there is nothing intrinsically good about clipping nails? Or even done manual labor? It is one of the most basic tasks a parent has to do with a baby unless they want a baby that makes itself bleed all the time. Cutting nails is just a practice, it has obvious practical benefits. And comparing blood tests, vaccines, and cutting hair to genital mutilation makes me think either you are trolling or our realities are so incongruent that there is no purpose in conversing.

natroniks 4y ago
I'm not trolling. I'm trying to give examples of different degrees of mutilation to understand where circumcision fits on the scale of "accepted body alteration" and "unacceptable body alteration." Is circumcising a newborn much different from having orthodontics placed in an 12 year old's mouth? That is, dental work that is done for purely aesthetic purposes. Or what about a frenectomy on a baby, or a toddler? While a frenectomy function to improve clarity of speech, I would argue clarity of speech is aesthetic in an aural sense. People with a lisp are understood, they can communicate, but their speech isn't considered as "pretty sounding" as those without a lisp. Is a frenectomy controversial in your opinion? If so, you're in the minority. If not, why is it ok to snip out part of a kid's mouth but not ok to snip off part of a kid's penis? A part that serves no benefit, mind you. Unless foreskin does provide a benefit that I'm unaware of.
- jl6 4y ago
  > Unless foreskin does provide a benefit that I'm unaware of. The lack of willingness of uncircumcised adult men to be circumcised should be a huge clue that there is in fact a benefit to bodily integrity.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  The distinction is about the purpose of altering someone else’s body. Is there a medical benefit or not? If not, then the answer is leave the other person’s body alone. I do not know enough about tongue ties or frenectomy’s to comment. I have heard it is over diagnosed and might be done just so parents can feel something was done, but again, I have not delved into it much. I have delved into cutting off foreskins, and that one, as you even claimed, is all about tribal affiliation. In other words, the procedure is not being done for the medical benefit of the person. At minimum, you would be causing unnecessary pain and risk of infection, but while I am not a urologist, I do know that foreskins have a role in providing lubrication. Maybe it is mostly inconsequential. But that is irrelevant to the principle that people should be in control of their own body as much as possible. Obviously there is a ton that will not be, but cutting off the foreskin on penis to signify which tribe the male belongs to is a pretty easy one to conclude that violates that principle.