6 ms·

We didn't kill our animals to consume it for our pleasure. We grew up very poor and did not have enough land to grow enough food to survive through the winter.

We didn't kill our animals to consume it for our pleasure. We grew up very poor and did not have enough land to grow enough food to survive through the winter. We had a large garden and most of my summers were spent working in the garden, and much of the autumn was filled with days of standing in front of a huge pot filled with vegetables, canning them for winter. We were not wealthy and did not have a store close enough to run to every day for fresh produce. We took care of our animals because we relied on them for our survival. We did not take that for granted, and we did not do it for pleasure. I understand that in an urban environment, surrounded by bountiful food (most of which is raised in other countries and is only available, out of local season, because of a complex web of global trade) the idea of killing and eating an animal can seem cruel or unnecessary. But your lack of experience of true poverty and lack of access to that sort of bounteous and constant source of non-animal products does not make all meat eaters inhumane and uncaring. I find your broad, general statements of moral superiority because of your vegan lifestyle to be ignorant and a result of having grown up in opulence and wealth, surrounded by bounty and options, with little reflection or concern for those who did not grow up in those circumstances, or consideration as to whether they could still be moral and respectful in their desperation and struggles to survive.

sweetheart 4y ago
Veganism explicitly makes room for people who are in situations where eating animal products is required to survive. I even explicitly mentioned that several times in what I wrote: when it’s not necessary, it’s wrong. There is no moral obligation in a situation with a lack of choice. However, the VAST majority of people are not in situations where animal products must be eaten to survive. But are you in that situation now? Do you need to eat animals to survive? If not, why do you do it?
- prometheus76 4y ago
  I'm an Orthodox Christian, so I do not eat animal products (no meat, no dairy, no eggs, no olive oil, and no wine, to be specific) during our fasting periods throughout the liturgical year. Those fasting periods add up to more than six months out of the year. On non-fasting days I eat things from the list above to renew my strength and because I am just as prone to sins of the right-hand (being too strict) as I am prone to sins of the left hand (being too lax). If I were to not eat those foods at any time, I would personally be very prone to pride and to thinking of myself as "more spiritual" than those around me, which is a spiritual danger worse than what might come about from eating meat. We are called to walk the Royal Path, and for those in the workaday world, that includes eating meat sometimes, and not eating meat sometimes. Regardless of what we are eating, however, we offer prayers of gratitude and thanksgiving and sorrow for living by the death of other living things. If I were an Orthodox Christian monk, I would follow the restrictions I listed above all the time because those foods are known to enflame the passions, but are more necessary when one is working for a living and raising a family. I would spend much more time in prayer than my current schedule allows, however, but that is not my path at this time.
  - sweetheart 4y ago
    > We are called to walk the Royal Path, and for those in the workaday world, that includes eating meat sometimes If I'm interpreting this correctly, you're saying you eat meat for 2 reasons. The first is that not doing so would make you too prideful, and the second is because it's in the "Royal Path", which we are called to. I think the pigs, sheep, chickens, etc. would prefer you feel a little prideful, compared to what happens to them when you eat to them [1]. As for the "Royal Path" can you elaborate? Why does the Royal Path condone violence against non-humans? 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7Ega_TpZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7Ega_TpZE
    - prometheus76 4y ago
      I already answered that question when I said "...which is a spiritual danger worse than what might come about from eating meat", but you are ignoring my answer because you disagree, or because you do not recognize that danger. Pride is the most dangerous of all passions, and is the mother of all the other passions.
      - sweetheart 4y ago
        Okay so the Royal Path allows it because otherwise we are too prideful and thats really bad. So the pridefulness you'd feel is more important (or meaningful, significant, etc.) than the life of the animal and it's suffering? It seems unfair to me that sentient animals need to die in your very personal battle with pride. Do you not see that as unfair? Also, are you prideful when you abstain from eating baboon? Or when you abstain from eating hippopotamus, or giant squid? Why is it that pridefulness comes from abstaining from pig and chicken, but not any other animals you already don't eat?
        prometheus76 4y ago
        I agree it's tragic that in our fallen world, we live by other living things dying. I pray every day for God's mercy on our fallen world, and for his mercy on my weakness. I don't think this will make sense to you, and I understand why it wouldn't, but I trust the traditions of my faith, and the teachings of the Church Fathers in my tradition, more than I trust my own judgement. The "higher path" in Orthodoxy is the monastic life, which includes not eating meat, dairy, eggs, (and only rarely eating olive oil and wine), but I am not a monk. And the "lower path" in Orthodoxy is to live in the world and to fast from those things for more days during the year than not. I follow the liturgical calendar, and I follow the teachings of my faith because I trust the accumulated wisdom of my faith more than I trust my own judgement, because I lack discernment and spiritual maturity. May God have mercy on us all. Please forgive me for not having a clearer or more satisfying answer for you.

sweetheart 4y ago

Veganism explicitly makes room for people who are in situations where eating animal products is required to survive. I even explicitly mentioned that several times in what I wrote: when it’s not necessary, it’s wrong. There is no moral obligation in a situation with a lack of choice. However, the VAST majority of people are not in situations where animal products must be eaten to survive. But are you in that situation now? Do you need to eat animals to survive? If not, why do you do it?

prometheus76 4y ago
I'm an Orthodox Christian, so I do not eat animal products (no meat, no dairy, no eggs, no olive oil, and no wine, to be specific) during our fasting periods throughout the liturgical year. Those fasting periods add up to more than six months out of the year. On non-fasting days I eat things from the list above to renew my strength and because I am just as prone to sins of the right-hand (being too strict) as I am prone to sins of the left hand (being too lax). If I were to not eat those foods at any time, I would personally be very prone to pride and to thinking of myself as "more spiritual" than those around me, which is a spiritual danger worse than what might come about from eating meat. We are called to walk the Royal Path, and for those in the workaday world, that includes eating meat sometimes, and not eating meat sometimes. Regardless of what we are eating, however, we offer prayers of gratitude and thanksgiving and sorrow for living by the death of other living things. If I were an Orthodox Christian monk, I would follow the restrictions I listed above all the time because those foods are known to enflame the passions, but are more necessary when one is working for a living and raising a family. I would spend much more time in prayer than my current schedule allows, however, but that is not my path at this time.
- sweetheart 4y ago
  > We are called to walk the Royal Path, and for those in the workaday world, that includes eating meat sometimes If I'm interpreting this correctly, you're saying you eat meat for 2 reasons. The first is that not doing so would make you too prideful, and the second is because it's in the "Royal Path", which we are called to. I think the pigs, sheep, chickens, etc. would prefer you feel a little prideful, compared to what happens to them when you eat to them [1]. As for the "Royal Path" can you elaborate? Why does the Royal Path condone violence against non-humans? 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7Ega_TpZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7Ega_TpZE
  - prometheus76 4y ago
    I already answered that question when I said "...which is a spiritual danger worse than what might come about from eating meat", but you are ignoring my answer because you disagree, or because you do not recognize that danger. Pride is the most dangerous of all passions, and is the mother of all the other passions.
    - sweetheart 4y ago
      Okay so the Royal Path allows it because otherwise we are too prideful and thats really bad. So the pridefulness you'd feel is more important (or meaningful, significant, etc.) than the life of the animal and it's suffering? It seems unfair to me that sentient animals need to die in your very personal battle with pride. Do you not see that as unfair? Also, are you prideful when you abstain from eating baboon? Or when you abstain from eating hippopotamus, or giant squid? Why is it that pridefulness comes from abstaining from pig and chicken, but not any other animals you already don't eat?
      - prometheus76 4y ago
        I agree it's tragic that in our fallen world, we live by other living things dying. I pray every day for God's mercy on our fallen world, and for his mercy on my weakness. I don't think this will make sense to you, and I understand why it wouldn't, but I trust the traditions of my faith, and the teachings of the Church Fathers in my tradition, more than I trust my own judgement. The "higher path" in Orthodoxy is the monastic life, which includes not eating meat, dairy, eggs, (and only rarely eating olive oil and wine), but I am not a monk. And the "lower path" in Orthodoxy is to live in the world and to fast from those things for more days during the year than not. I follow the liturgical calendar, and I follow the teachings of my faith because I trust the accumulated wisdom of my faith more than I trust my own judgement, because I lack discernment and spiritual maturity. May God have mercy on us all. Please forgive me for not having a clearer or more satisfying answer for you.