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It is possible for a well-trained human to swim the distance. In fact, it is possible to just see there is something across the north sea, if you are standing

It is possible for a well-trained human to swim the distance. In fact, it is possible to just see there is something across the north sea, if you are standing in the right place with the right weather. I see no reason why someone can't end up in Brittain just by accidentally falling in the north sea and maybe clinging to whatever floats around. You'd have to be lucky, but there is a lot of time to be lucky in (seen from the point of humanity of course, not from the individual dropping in the sea). For the question: why would they want to do it, that's even more easy. Because they could. That has been plenty of reason for some adventurous people, always.

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
> I see no reason why someone can't end up in Brittain just by accidentally falling in the north sea and maybe clinging to whatever floats around I would expect that even Paleolithic people could deliberately put together something better than that; e.g, a raft, kayak or coracle from wood bound with hide. Once you have that skill, "some adventurous people" would of course try to achieve a landing on that island on the horizon.
rozab 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_dispersal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_dispersal It does happen a lot on evolutionary timescales; it's how lemurs got to Madagascar, for instance. But one would think humans have the situational awareness not to get stuck on a raft of vegetation drifting out to sea.
- bink 4y ago
  I remember reading an article years ago that said that lemurs finding their way to Madagascar is believed to have happened several times. Mostly due to the tendency of lemurs to live in trees and for trees to be washed out to sea.
- LeifCarrotson 4y ago
  They'd also have the situational awareness to decide that life there in France sandwiched between coastal tribes A and B and inland tribe C sucks, so they're going to try their chances on that fuzzy bit of land that looks promising on the horizon. It only takes one small group over a timescale of thousands of years to make that decision. Dispersal is even more likely if people or stories are able to get back and forth; the issue of "we only have 8 people and not enough genetic diversity" is moot if the story or the rumor spreads that there's lots of land and lots of food on that fuzzy spot over there.
koolba 4y ago
> You'd have to be lucky, but there is a lot of time to be lucky in (seen from the point of humanity of course, not from the individual dropping in the sea). I’m no biologist, but I think you’d need at least two people to have a chance at sustainability.
- mshockwave 4y ago
  I can't remember where I read this but I think you need at least 16 people to have a genomically sustainable population
  - AlotOfReading 4y ago
    There's no bright-line "minimum viable population" above the trivial answer of 2. You'll see people suggest numbers anywhere from a couple thousand down, but these don't mean that rebuilding a population is impossible, just that there will be severe effects. We've observed populations of as few as two individuals go on to become invasive, wildly successful populations when introduced to new habitats.
    - Asraelite 4y ago
      > We've observed populations as few as two individuals go on to become invasive, wildly successful populations That sounds fascinating. What species?
      - AlotOfReading 4y ago
        That particular case was Pinta Island in the Galapagos, where a breeding pair of goats was introduced in 1959. The population eventually reached a peak of 41,000 before a long and ultimately successful eradication campaign eliminated them.
  - tejtm 4y ago
    We are going to need a bigger boat .... I am not fetching and rereading the paper now but even simpler genomes than ours required many more individuals not to go extinct. The Origins of Genome Complexity Abstract Complete genomic sequences from diverse phylogenetic lineages reveal notable increases in genome complexity from prokaryotes to multicellular eukaryotes. The changes include gradual increases in gene number, resulting from the retention of duplicate genes, and more abrupt increases in the abundance of spliceosomal introns and mobile genetic elements. We argue that many of these modifications emerged passively in response to the long-term population-size reductions that accompanied increases in organism size. According to this model, much of the restructuring of eukaryotic genomes was initiated by nonadaptive processes, and this in turn provided novel substrates for the secondary evolution of phenotypic complexity by natural selection. The enormous long-term effective population sizes of prokaryotes may impose a substantial barrier to the evolution of complex genomes and morphologies. Lynch, M., & Conery, J. S. (2003). Science, 302(5649), 1401–1404. doi:10.1126/science.1089370
kazinator 4y ago
Article makes it clear that swimming was not necessary, right in the synopsis below the title: "Ian Morris on “Proto-Britain” Which Was Once Part of the European Continent (Literally) "
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
There is also this thing called a raft. I would posit any somewhat modern human ancestor had tool use to make rafts or some sort of fishing craft.

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago

> I see no reason why someone can't end up in Brittain just by accidentally falling in the north sea and maybe clinging to whatever floats around I would expect that even Paleolithic people could deliberately put together something better than that; e.g, a raft, kayak or coracle from wood bound with hide. Once you have that skill, "some adventurous people" would of course try to achieve a landing on that island on the horizon.

rozab 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_dispersal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_dispersal It does happen a lot on evolutionary timescales; it's how lemurs got to Madagascar, for instance. But one would think humans have the situational awareness not to get stuck on a raft of vegetation drifting out to sea.

bink 4y ago
I remember reading an article years ago that said that lemurs finding their way to Madagascar is believed to have happened several times. Mostly due to the tendency of lemurs to live in trees and for trees to be washed out to sea.
LeifCarrotson 4y ago
They'd also have the situational awareness to decide that life there in France sandwiched between coastal tribes A and B and inland tribe C sucks, so they're going to try their chances on that fuzzy bit of land that looks promising on the horizon. It only takes one small group over a timescale of thousands of years to make that decision. Dispersal is even more likely if people or stories are able to get back and forth; the issue of "we only have 8 people and not enough genetic diversity" is moot if the story or the rumor spreads that there's lots of land and lots of food on that fuzzy spot over there.

koolba 4y ago

> You'd have to be lucky, but there is a lot of time to be lucky in (seen from the point of humanity of course, not from the individual dropping in the sea). I’m no biologist, but I think you’d need at least two people to have a chance at sustainability.

mshockwave 4y ago
I can't remember where I read this but I think you need at least 16 people to have a genomically sustainable population
- AlotOfReading 4y ago
  There's no bright-line "minimum viable population" above the trivial answer of 2. You'll see people suggest numbers anywhere from a couple thousand down, but these don't mean that rebuilding a population is impossible, just that there will be severe effects. We've observed populations of as few as two individuals go on to become invasive, wildly successful populations when introduced to new habitats.
  - Asraelite 4y ago
    > We've observed populations as few as two individuals go on to become invasive, wildly successful populations That sounds fascinating. What species?
    - AlotOfReading 4y ago
      That particular case was Pinta Island in the Galapagos, where a breeding pair of goats was introduced in 1959. The population eventually reached a peak of 41,000 before a long and ultimately successful eradication campaign eliminated them.
- tejtm 4y ago
  We are going to need a bigger boat .... I am not fetching and rereading the paper now but even simpler genomes than ours required many more individuals not to go extinct. The Origins of Genome Complexity Abstract Complete genomic sequences from diverse phylogenetic lineages reveal notable increases in genome complexity from prokaryotes to multicellular eukaryotes. The changes include gradual increases in gene number, resulting from the retention of duplicate genes, and more abrupt increases in the abundance of spliceosomal introns and mobile genetic elements. We argue that many of these modifications emerged passively in response to the long-term population-size reductions that accompanied increases in organism size. According to this model, much of the restructuring of eukaryotic genomes was initiated by nonadaptive processes, and this in turn provided novel substrates for the secondary evolution of phenotypic complexity by natural selection. The enormous long-term effective population sizes of prokaryotes may impose a substantial barrier to the evolution of complex genomes and morphologies. Lynch, M., & Conery, J. S. (2003). Science, 302(5649), 1401–1404. doi:10.1126/science.1089370

kazinator 4y ago

Article makes it clear that swimming was not necessary, right in the synopsis below the title: "Ian Morris on “Proto-Britain” Which Was Once Part of the European Continent (Literally) "

AtlasBarfed 4y ago

There is also this thing called a raft. I would posit any somewhat modern human ancestor had tool use to make rafts or some sort of fishing craft.