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Why though? I don’t have an issue with your question or the idea of people remotely controlling pressure washers but whats the case for automation over elbow gr

Why though? I don’t have an issue with your question or the idea of people remotely controlling pressure washers but whats the case for automation over elbow grease? Why do we always feel the need to automate and optimize instead of just being happy with things taking time and being difficult?

Karsteski 4y ago
Because instead we can delegate tasks that no one wants to do to robots, machinery and computers, and instead focus human labour and brain power on other things. Which is how we got to the point that we are at in the first place.
- Barrin92 4y ago
  the reality is somewhat more complicated than that. Every time you outsource something you also lose a means to exercise your brain power or your physical body. It's why many of us are in decidedly worse shape than some of our ancestors. There's a company in the Netherlands that makes mechanical rather than electric lifts[1] that involves human action. One result, people who use them are less frail and sick. It's a technology that augments rather than replaces the human body. And there's a big difference between the two. We got to where we are because a lot of the things we built have aided us and increased human potential, not diminished it. Even a gun which can be used for good or bad ultimately leaves decision making to someone with a brain. Putting that gun on a robot and even giving the ability to make a decision up? That's a very different kind of technology. [1]https://www.vertiwalk.com/ https://www.vertiwalk.com/
candiddevmike 4y ago
My point is AI to control a robot to pick strawberries is way more of a leap than someone picking strawberries by remote controlling a robot.
- farleykr 4y ago
  Right, but why not just go out in the field and pick strawberries instead of trying to involve AI and robots? To me this is an area where Ian Malcom’s point about can/should applies.
  - candiddevmike 4y ago
    Because as this article shows, there is a large number of folks who would consider doing this type of work remotely but would not do it in person? Because it would enable folks who are handicapped to do this kind of work? Because it's simpler to do than perfecting an AI (hell you could train an AI based on this work)?
    - farleykr 4y ago
      I am totally onboard with helping folks who are handicapped and addressing other issues of disadvantage or injustice. My point is that I don't think it would be useful to try to make the act of strawberry picking itself easier.
      - riversflow 4y ago
        Berry farming in Calfornia is rapidly disappearing because our cost of living is so high it makes it more economical to ship year round from Chile. Many other crops will likely follow, at least according to a friend in agricultural finance. Medium term, as the global QoL increases the cost of labor for intensive crops are going make our diets very bland without further mechanization. Fruit picking is monotonous and back breaking work that pays absolutely miserably. That we have to import labor to do it, and even imported labor complains and strikes about pay says a lot.
  - ImprobableTruth 4y ago
    ... because one is backbreaking labor while the other is something that people might even be willing to do recreationally (look at farming simulator)?
  - MrPatan 4y ago
- bart_spoon 4y ago
  I'm not sure it is. Yes, an AI solution isn't necessarily an easy problem to solve, but once it is solved, it scales extremely well. Having someone pick strawberries by robot does not. For every robot, you need an individual at the helm. How do you train them? How do deal with fluctuations in the number of people interested in picking at any given time? In a game like described above, part of the appeal is people have 0 obligations. They can start when they'd like, they can finish when they'd like, and there is no real world prize/penalty based on how well/poorly they perform. A person can hop on for 30 seconds or 5 hours, on a whim. They can get distracted, completely screw up, or sit idly while they do something else, and there are no real world consequences. If you try to recreate that same lack of obligation for a real world problem, you very likely could be setting yourself up for hurdles you simply can't deal with. If you begin to add consequences, you remove the appeal of the games with no obligations, and people won't participate. AI is hard to get going, but I'm not sure it is any more difficult than some of these other options, and once you do, you will scale far better.
allendoerfer 4y ago
You are on Hacker News. Wikipedia says: A hacker is a person skilled in information technology who uses their technical knowledge to achieve a goal or overcome an obstacle, within a computerized system by non-standard means.
- farleykr 4y ago
  Point taken. But that doesn't mean we can't challenge the idea that hacking is the right approach to any given idea that is posed on this website.
  - allendoerfer 4y ago
    Depends on whether your goal is to have fun/be a human being or to work towards our future as immortal explorers of the universe.

Karsteski 4y ago

Because instead we can delegate tasks that no one wants to do to robots, machinery and computers, and instead focus human labour and brain power on other things. Which is how we got to the point that we are at in the first place.

Barrin92 4y ago
the reality is somewhat more complicated than that. Every time you outsource something you also lose a means to exercise your brain power or your physical body. It's why many of us are in decidedly worse shape than some of our ancestors. There's a company in the Netherlands that makes mechanical rather than electric lifts[1] that involves human action. One result, people who use them are less frail and sick. It's a technology that augments rather than replaces the human body. And there's a big difference between the two. We got to where we are because a lot of the things we built have aided us and increased human potential, not diminished it. Even a gun which can be used for good or bad ultimately leaves decision making to someone with a brain. Putting that gun on a robot and even giving the ability to make a decision up? That's a very different kind of technology. [1]https://www.vertiwalk.com/ https://www.vertiwalk.com/

candiddevmike 4y ago

My point is AI to control a robot to pick strawberries is way more of a leap than someone picking strawberries by remote controlling a robot.

farleykr 4y ago
Right, but why not just go out in the field and pick strawberries instead of trying to involve AI and robots? To me this is an area where Ian Malcom’s point about can/should applies.
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  Because as this article shows, there is a large number of folks who would consider doing this type of work remotely but would not do it in person? Because it would enable folks who are handicapped to do this kind of work? Because it's simpler to do than perfecting an AI (hell you could train an AI based on this work)?
  - farleykr 4y ago
    I am totally onboard with helping folks who are handicapped and addressing other issues of disadvantage or injustice. My point is that I don't think it would be useful to try to make the act of strawberry picking itself easier.
    - riversflow 4y ago
      Berry farming in Calfornia is rapidly disappearing because our cost of living is so high it makes it more economical to ship year round from Chile. Many other crops will likely follow, at least according to a friend in agricultural finance. Medium term, as the global QoL increases the cost of labor for intensive crops are going make our diets very bland without further mechanization. Fruit picking is monotonous and back breaking work that pays absolutely miserably. That we have to import labor to do it, and even imported labor complains and strikes about pay says a lot.
- ImprobableTruth 4y ago
  ... because one is backbreaking labor while the other is something that people might even be willing to do recreationally (look at farming simulator)?
- MrPatan 4y ago
bart_spoon 4y ago
I'm not sure it is. Yes, an AI solution isn't necessarily an easy problem to solve, but once it is solved, it scales extremely well. Having someone pick strawberries by robot does not. For every robot, you need an individual at the helm. How do you train them? How do deal with fluctuations in the number of people interested in picking at any given time? In a game like described above, part of the appeal is people have 0 obligations. They can start when they'd like, they can finish when they'd like, and there is no real world prize/penalty based on how well/poorly they perform. A person can hop on for 30 seconds or 5 hours, on a whim. They can get distracted, completely screw up, or sit idly while they do something else, and there are no real world consequences. If you try to recreate that same lack of obligation for a real world problem, you very likely could be setting yourself up for hurdles you simply can't deal with. If you begin to add consequences, you remove the appeal of the games with no obligations, and people won't participate. AI is hard to get going, but I'm not sure it is any more difficult than some of these other options, and once you do, you will scale far better.

allendoerfer 4y ago

You are on Hacker News. Wikipedia says: A hacker is a person skilled in information technology who uses their technical knowledge to achieve a goal or overcome an obstacle, within a computerized system by non-standard means.

farleykr 4y ago
Point taken. But that doesn't mean we can't challenge the idea that hacking is the right approach to any given idea that is posed on this website.
- allendoerfer 4y ago
  Depends on whether your goal is to have fun/be a human being or to work towards our future as immortal explorers of the universe.