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I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but

I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? It is very difficult to to empathize with a spider or imagine that a scorpion could feel contentment, but as we we climb up the kingdom to vertebrates and especially mammals and birds, it’s clear to me that we share more in common than otherwise. Most people love to share outrage over abuse of conventional pets or bizarre and seemingly psychotic behaviour of eating dogs yet feel nothing to the slaughter of a pig. It is my opinion that most people ignore and switch “off” at these discussions as a way to maintain plausible deniability. Like people get mad at PETA showing videos on the street of slaughterhouses in a “how dare you” sort of way but really I’m of the attitude of how dare they. Cows are very intelligent, have long term memories, and feel desolation when their calves are taken away from them. Cats as well. The whole cats vs dogs argument is just mega weird to me and like you say really emphasizes the cognitive dissonance at play in most people who consider themselves kind to animals yet eat meat.

formerkrogemp 4y ago
Your line of thinking follows that of Peter Singer. I'd imagine that his brand of philosophy would appeal to you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ianai 4y ago
Vegan here, too. It’s totally duh-level obvious that nonhumans are plenty smart to feel emotions that we shouldn’t inflict. I don’t have such optimism towards people. Look at how poorly we treat each other. If we actually had some strong empathetic tendencies as a species we wouldn’t kill each other. There are many species which don’t. Instead I’ve got a coworker who’s gladly told me about killing his cows calves in front of their mothers and all manner of other things. “Because I’m a vegan.” And he revels in those mother cows suffering. Something like around 1/100 of humans (or males?-googled) are psychopaths. I don’t worry about a super intelligence spawning from AI and wiping out humanity. At best that’s just projection. I figure a super intellect is equally or more likely to be benevolent since nonzero sum games require cooperation (or something like this). If that’s wrong then at least I suspect a super intelligence would see cooperation as greater than decimation.
- theplumber 4y ago
  I wonder if a psychopaths would make better soldiers. I always thought that people are just different and their path (i.e serial climinal or great soldier or good manager) depends on the environment. That being said slaughtering cows doesn't seem that bad. After all there are such jobs at slaugherhouses. Perhaps he was just teasing you making it more dramatic.
  - ianai 4y ago
    Several third person verified.
  - kinghtown 4y ago
    Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from. It’s it ain’t so bad then you’d think there would be more pride in it. But animal cruelty is actually one of the weaker arguments for becoming vegan because it requires, as I said earlier, an a-ha realization that animals are aware, intelligent, feel pain and sadness, deserve more from us as the stewards of this world. Like people can high five over loving bacon and what have you, but honestly the eating habits of most people are deplorable and selfish and they can numbly read about ecological devastation caused by industrialized animal farming and the rampant use of antibiotics which in turn is creating super bacteria immune to it (let us not forget covid came from a meat market as well as the seasonal avian and bovine “flus” which manifest constantly).. you guys can cry in carnivore all you want but the worst thing of the situation is that eating meat or drinking dairy is not necessary: it is all done for pleasure. It’s just pathetic that people can look at all that and reply “.. but cheese”.
    - theplumber 4y ago
      >> Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from. I don't buy that. People are sensitive to certain images. I can't stand to dental surgery videos either and definitely I don't think children would get any benefit from watching such material but that doesn't make dental surgery something people shouldn't do. That being said as a child I've been exposed to animal slaugther on farms and I still eat beef, chicken and pork(very, very rarely). I don't think seeing how the animals are killed makes you vegan. I don't enjoy watching animals being killed though but we are mortals and animals are mortals too so in the end it makes little difference if we kill or do not kill animals. We have the same end destination. I think this makes us less sensitive to killing animals and even our own. The difference between us and the animals is that they lack enough intelligence to produce anything meaningful(i.e technology, innovation etc) during their lifespan thus the reason why their scope in life is to become good food for us. We should minimise the pain inflicted upon animals and create better living conditions. It's good for animals and it's good for the consumers as well. Legislation already exists in Europe and will only get stronger.
hetspookjee 4y ago
There are vegan hunters around, too. People that hate the bio Industry yet still feel it’s allright to eat meat. Given that an animal has lived a good and free life and the death is swift.
- MushyQuadrant 4y ago
  No there aren't. I have no doubt the people you describe exist, but "vegan hunter" is a complete oxymoron unless you're talking about "hunting" berries. Even descriptivist dictionaries don't include any definition of vegan which allows for eating meat.
  - hetspookjee 4y ago
    Ive heard the term for a lack of a better word and find it fair enough. But the point im making is that there are people that refuse to participate in the bio-industry due to ethical considerations, yet hunt for their own food and do so scarcely.
novok 4y ago
Vegan's take their moral stance / religion and then try to push it as a health thing with biased reasoning, which can lead to general negative human health consequences as it percolates through via policy. Predators exist, and humans whether we like it or not are scavenger omnivorous predators. There aren't vegan bears or indigenous vegan human tribes for a reason.
- kinghtown 4y ago
  I have a 145 kg bench press with 17 inch biceps. How about you?
  - ttrmw 4y ago
    Apart from selfishly loving the taste of meat, convenience of nutrition for sport (ie getting 200g protein on 2500 cals or less) is really the only justification I have for meat consumption. Any suggested reading for someone like me?
    - sweetheart 4y ago
      A Plea for the Animals, Eating Animals, or Animal Liberation I’d start with Eating Animals. The author started the book to explore how his food ends up on his plate, but the book becomes about his gradual transition to veganism as he learns about animal agriculture. A Plea for the Animals should be the second one. Written by a neurologist/monk who eloquently makes the argument that there is nothing in our biology which justifies subjugating animal. Then Animal Liberation if you’re looking for a classic. It’s older, a bit more esoteric, but decent.
    - kinghtown 4y ago
      I’d suggest looking at some plant based diet athletes like Kylie Irving and see what he’s doing. I’m not going to lie or pretend that egg whites have a 1:1 equivalent in vegan nutrition but I would suggest taking a cold hard look at your performance requirements if you are competing on a professional level and if it really is all that necessary to squeeze that extra 3% performance edge or whatever it may be by eating meat or dairy. Maybe check out some vegan fitness youtubers or watch The Game Changers to get started. I’m weightlifting and running and I feel better and stronger as a vegan.
logicchains 4y ago
>Cows are very intelligent, have long term memories, and feel desolation when their calves are taken away from them Have you ever met cows in the farm/paddock? Most cows I've come across are huge assholes, like the kind of person that hangs around a bar trying to start fights. In my mind they deserve to be eaten.
- jobigoud 4y ago
  You think people that hang around bars trying to start fights deserve to be eaten?
- gnramires 4y ago
  Their benevolence aside, do you believe all assholes deserve to be killed? And what about the more problematic, all assholes deserve to suffer? I think it's difficult to untangle their benevolence from their self-protection. But I did see several signs of curiosity and inter-species care between cows. You also have to consider that we're the assholes :) (Note: In that case, no, I don't think we should be killed, just improve)
- uxcolumbo 4y ago
  Your line of reasoning is not very logical and dare I say it - barbaric. To condemn a sentient being because you deem it being an 'asshole'. There is a spectrum of characters - even among the animal kingdom - including us humans. Here is a counter argument: https://love.heavenofanimals.com/2021/11/17/man-demonstrates-that-farm-animals-are-more-than-just-food-they-are-clever-and-friendly/ https://love.heavenofanimals.com/2021/11/17/man-demonstrates...
guerrilla 4y ago
> I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? The only people who don't think animals feel pain are people who don't spend time with animals. Every farmer since the neolithic has known that animals feel pain and are to some degree or another intelligent (we intentionally bred some of the intelligence out of many.) That has no bearing on whether someone eats meat or not. You have assumptions that most of the world do not share with you. I feel bad if I see a fly slowly dying, but I'll still kill all houseflies that bother me. There's no contradiction in that. Death isn't suffering; quite the opposite.
- kinghtown 4y ago
  - harpersealtako 4y ago
    Admittedly I only skimmed through through it, but it looks like yet another vegan documentary (e.g. Dominion, which I watched all the way through and wasn't convinced at all by) where the worst examples of the worst excesses of industrialized slaughter are taken in the worst possible light and suggested to be broadly representative of the whole. Honestly, anybody with basically any exposure to real-life animal husbandry can find issues in these sorts of documentaries with minimal effort. For myself, I'm a hunter and so I regularly kill and butcher wild animals literally as a hobby -- despite this (or maybe because of it), I'm actually quite open to criticizing the ethics of intensive livestock farms as long as it's not through the lens of "meat is murder". I wish there was a halfway decent documentary that took a more balanced approach, because if your goal is "better animal welfare" rather than "the abolition of meat eating on moral grounds" then there's actually a lot to criticize and improve on. e.g. I thought "Food Inc" was a lot more even-handed, even though it still fell into some of the usual traps.
    - kinghtown 4y ago
      oh for sure these vegan documentaries are going to cherry pick footage (because the goal is to shock and expose) but it’s not as though they were invited to film in multiple locations around the world and chose the most messed up place of the bunch. The problem is that most people have this like cartoon visual in their head of farming and that these animals are killed gently and instantly when an extreme opposite is closer to the truth. I’d argue that industrialized slaughter is just never going to look good regardless of what facility it is. Lab grown meat is something I would support but as it stands today the meat industry is an abject horror and deserves to be exposed.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

formerkrogemp 4y ago

Your line of thinking follows that of Peter Singer. I'd imagine that his brand of philosophy would appeal to you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ianai 4y ago

Vegan here, too. It’s totally duh-level obvious that nonhumans are plenty smart to feel emotions that we shouldn’t inflict. I don’t have such optimism towards people. Look at how poorly we treat each other. If we actually had some strong empathetic tendencies as a species we wouldn’t kill each other. There are many species which don’t. Instead I’ve got a coworker who’s gladly told me about killing his cows calves in front of their mothers and all manner of other things. “Because I’m a vegan.” And he revels in those mother cows suffering. Something like around 1/100 of humans (or males?-googled) are psychopaths. I don’t worry about a super intelligence spawning from AI and wiping out humanity. At best that’s just projection. I figure a super intellect is equally or more likely to be benevolent since nonzero sum games require cooperation (or something like this). If that’s wrong then at least I suspect a super intelligence would see cooperation as greater than decimation.

theplumber 4y ago
I wonder if a psychopaths would make better soldiers. I always thought that people are just different and their path (i.e serial climinal or great soldier or good manager) depends on the environment. That being said slaughtering cows doesn't seem that bad. After all there are such jobs at slaugherhouses. Perhaps he was just teasing you making it more dramatic.
- ianai 4y ago
  Several third person verified.
- kinghtown 4y ago
  Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from. It’s it ain’t so bad then you’d think there would be more pride in it. But animal cruelty is actually one of the weaker arguments for becoming vegan because it requires, as I said earlier, an a-ha realization that animals are aware, intelligent, feel pain and sadness, deserve more from us as the stewards of this world. Like people can high five over loving bacon and what have you, but honestly the eating habits of most people are deplorable and selfish and they can numbly read about ecological devastation caused by industrialized animal farming and the rampant use of antibiotics which in turn is creating super bacteria immune to it (let us not forget covid came from a meat market as well as the seasonal avian and bovine “flus” which manifest constantly).. you guys can cry in carnivore all you want but the worst thing of the situation is that eating meat or drinking dairy is not necessary: it is all done for pleasure. It’s just pathetic that people can look at all that and reply “.. but cheese”.
  - theplumber 4y ago
    >> Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from. I don't buy that. People are sensitive to certain images. I can't stand to dental surgery videos either and definitely I don't think children would get any benefit from watching such material but that doesn't make dental surgery something people shouldn't do. That being said as a child I've been exposed to animal slaugther on farms and I still eat beef, chicken and pork(very, very rarely). I don't think seeing how the animals are killed makes you vegan. I don't enjoy watching animals being killed though but we are mortals and animals are mortals too so in the end it makes little difference if we kill or do not kill animals. We have the same end destination. I think this makes us less sensitive to killing animals and even our own. The difference between us and the animals is that they lack enough intelligence to produce anything meaningful(i.e technology, innovation etc) during their lifespan thus the reason why their scope in life is to become good food for us. We should minimise the pain inflicted upon animals and create better living conditions. It's good for animals and it's good for the consumers as well. Legislation already exists in Europe and will only get stronger.

hetspookjee 4y ago

There are vegan hunters around, too. People that hate the bio Industry yet still feel it’s allright to eat meat. Given that an animal has lived a good and free life and the death is swift.

MushyQuadrant 4y ago
No there aren't. I have no doubt the people you describe exist, but "vegan hunter" is a complete oxymoron unless you're talking about "hunting" berries. Even descriptivist dictionaries don't include any definition of vegan which allows for eating meat.
- hetspookjee 4y ago
  Ive heard the term for a lack of a better word and find it fair enough. But the point im making is that there are people that refuse to participate in the bio-industry due to ethical considerations, yet hunt for their own food and do so scarcely.

novok 4y ago

Vegan's take their moral stance / religion and then try to push it as a health thing with biased reasoning, which can lead to general negative human health consequences as it percolates through via policy. Predators exist, and humans whether we like it or not are scavenger omnivorous predators. There aren't vegan bears or indigenous vegan human tribes for a reason.

kinghtown 4y ago
I have a 145 kg bench press with 17 inch biceps. How about you?
- ttrmw 4y ago
  Apart from selfishly loving the taste of meat, convenience of nutrition for sport (ie getting 200g protein on 2500 cals or less) is really the only justification I have for meat consumption. Any suggested reading for someone like me?
  - sweetheart 4y ago
    A Plea for the Animals, Eating Animals, or Animal Liberation I’d start with Eating Animals. The author started the book to explore how his food ends up on his plate, but the book becomes about his gradual transition to veganism as he learns about animal agriculture. A Plea for the Animals should be the second one. Written by a neurologist/monk who eloquently makes the argument that there is nothing in our biology which justifies subjugating animal. Then Animal Liberation if you’re looking for a classic. It’s older, a bit more esoteric, but decent.
  - kinghtown 4y ago
    I’d suggest looking at some plant based diet athletes like Kylie Irving and see what he’s doing. I’m not going to lie or pretend that egg whites have a 1:1 equivalent in vegan nutrition but I would suggest taking a cold hard look at your performance requirements if you are competing on a professional level and if it really is all that necessary to squeeze that extra 3% performance edge or whatever it may be by eating meat or dairy. Maybe check out some vegan fitness youtubers or watch The Game Changers to get started. I’m weightlifting and running and I feel better and stronger as a vegan.

logicchains 4y ago

>Cows are very intelligent, have long term memories, and feel desolation when their calves are taken away from them Have you ever met cows in the farm/paddock? Most cows I've come across are huge assholes, like the kind of person that hangs around a bar trying to start fights. In my mind they deserve to be eaten.

jobigoud 4y ago
You think people that hang around bars trying to start fights deserve to be eaten?
gnramires 4y ago
Their benevolence aside, do you believe all assholes deserve to be killed? And what about the more problematic, all assholes deserve to suffer? I think it's difficult to untangle their benevolence from their self-protection. But I did see several signs of curiosity and inter-species care between cows. You also have to consider that we're the assholes :) (Note: In that case, no, I don't think we should be killed, just improve)
uxcolumbo 4y ago
Your line of reasoning is not very logical and dare I say it - barbaric. To condemn a sentient being because you deem it being an 'asshole'. There is a spectrum of characters - even among the animal kingdom - including us humans. Here is a counter argument: https://love.heavenofanimals.com/2021/11/17/man-demonstrates-that-farm-animals-are-more-than-just-food-they-are-clever-and-friendly/ https://love.heavenofanimals.com/2021/11/17/man-demonstrates...

guerrilla 4y ago

> I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? The only people who don't think animals feel pain are people who don't spend time with animals. Every farmer since the neolithic has known that animals feel pain and are to some degree or another intelligent (we intentionally bred some of the intelligence out of many.) That has no bearing on whether someone eats meat or not. You have assumptions that most of the world do not share with you. I feel bad if I see a fly slowly dying, but I'll still kill all houseflies that bother me. There's no contradiction in that. Death isn't suffering; quite the opposite.

kinghtown 4y ago
- harpersealtako 4y ago
  Admittedly I only skimmed through through it, but it looks like yet another vegan documentary (e.g. Dominion, which I watched all the way through and wasn't convinced at all by) where the worst examples of the worst excesses of industrialized slaughter are taken in the worst possible light and suggested to be broadly representative of the whole. Honestly, anybody with basically any exposure to real-life animal husbandry can find issues in these sorts of documentaries with minimal effort. For myself, I'm a hunter and so I regularly kill and butcher wild animals literally as a hobby -- despite this (or maybe because of it), I'm actually quite open to criticizing the ethics of intensive livestock farms as long as it's not through the lens of "meat is murder". I wish there was a halfway decent documentary that took a more balanced approach, because if your goal is "better animal welfare" rather than "the abolition of meat eating on moral grounds" then there's actually a lot to criticize and improve on. e.g. I thought "Food Inc" was a lot more even-handed, even though it still fell into some of the usual traps.
  - kinghtown 4y ago
    oh for sure these vegan documentaries are going to cherry pick footage (because the goal is to shock and expose) but it’s not as though they were invited to film in multiple locations around the world and chose the most messed up place of the bunch. The problem is that most people have this like cartoon visual in their head of farming and that these animals are killed gently and instantly when an extreme opposite is closer to the truth. I’d argue that industrialized slaughter is just never going to look good regardless of what facility it is. Lab grown meat is something I would support but as it stands today the meat industry is an abject horror and deserves to be exposed.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]