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> But what makes a pig optimistic? In 2010, researchers at Newcastle University showed that pigs reared in a pleasant, stimulating environment, with room to roa

> But what makes a pig optimistic? In 2010, researchers at Newcastle University showed that pigs reared in a pleasant, stimulating environment, with room to roam, plenty of straw, and “pig toys” to explore, show the optimistic response to the squeak significantly more often than pigs raised in a small, bleak, boring enclosure. That... is dumb. They just chose whatever definition of "optimistic" was convenient for their experimental hypothesis and then used it to confirm their hypothesis. "What's an optimist pig? It's one that reacts to squeaks more often. How do we know a pig is optimistic? Because it reacts to squeaks more often!". Not only dumb, but also circular. Circularly dumb.

ggm 4y ago
Initially I also read it that way but it's a better designed experiment than first glance suggests: it's a choice predicated on three things leading to two outcomes, of the three things, one is clearly beneficial and one not beneficial, and the third indeterminate. So the two outcomes are beneficial and not beneficial. How does the pig interpret the as-yet unknown case? An "optimistic" pigs behaviour suggests it is open to the indeterminate choice having an upside. A "pessimistic" pig acts like its more likely to be disappointing. I could say a richly stimulated pig has more open choices and a poorly stimulated pig does not. It's a reasonable definition of optimism or pessimism in the field of choice. I do still think it's anthropomorphic thinking but I think it's a well founded experiment even in that critique.
- cheese_goddess 4y ago
  Thanks, I understand the experiment as described. But if you start by asking "what makes a pig optimistic", you're already assuming that a pig can be optimistic. Whatever reason you find after that to say that the pig is optimistic is going to be wrong, because you have failed to do anything to justify the idea that pigs can be optimistic in the first place.

ggm 4y ago

Initially I also read it that way but it's a better designed experiment than first glance suggests: it's a choice predicated on three things leading to two outcomes, of the three things, one is clearly beneficial and one not beneficial, and the third indeterminate. So the two outcomes are beneficial and not beneficial. How does the pig interpret the as-yet unknown case? An "optimistic" pigs behaviour suggests it is open to the indeterminate choice having an upside. A "pessimistic" pig acts like its more likely to be disappointing. I could say a richly stimulated pig has more open choices and a poorly stimulated pig does not. It's a reasonable definition of optimism or pessimism in the field of choice. I do still think it's anthropomorphic thinking but I think it's a well founded experiment even in that critique.

cheese_goddess 4y ago
Thanks, I understand the experiment as described. But if you start by asking "what makes a pig optimistic", you're already assuming that a pig can be optimistic. Whatever reason you find after that to say that the pig is optimistic is going to be wrong, because you have failed to do anything to justify the idea that pigs can be optimistic in the first place.