4 ms·

It's not so fringe, just Google it.

natroniks 4y ago
I have googled it, nothing I've read describes it as common or main stream. Many describe it as being performed only within a very small segment of the ultra orthodox community. I haven't found a place with reliable stats, which is unfortunate, but here is a paragraph with a recent and prety clear comment from a leading Jewish authority https://www.thehastingscenter.org/ritual-circumcision-ban-metzitzah-bpeh/ https://www.thehastingscenter.org/ritual-circumcision-ban-me... Most mohels, even among the Orthodox, do use a sterile pipette, avoiding direct oral-genital contact. In 2005, the Rabbinical Council of America, the main union of modern Orthodox rabbis, issued a statement urging the abandonment of direct suction. Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a medical ethicist and dean of Yeshiva University’s (Orthodox) rabbinical school, was quoted in The JewishDaily Forward as saying: “There is no requirement to make metzitzah b’peh. The Talmud says plainly it is not part of the ritual but belongs to the medical, post-surgical component. There is no doubt that insistence on metzitzah b’peh is wrong. I firmly believe that making metzitzah b’pehis a criminal act.” Do you have sources showing this practice is commonly accepted?
- natroniks 4y ago
  PS this says (estimates) 3600 children a year. That's 3600 too many, but far from "common place" in my understanding of the term. I can't predict how many Jewish males are born each year, but if someone wants to provide that, I'd be curious to know what portion these 3600 represents.
  - nyolfen 4y ago
    it says 3,600 a year in new york; this does not sound like an esoteric fringe practice, but at least a sizeable minority
    - natroniks 4y ago
      The only community that practices this archaic ritual is in NYC, so I'm not sure the specificity matters in this case. Let me also point out that the community is estimated to comprise 250K, "many" though not all of whom practice this. Avoiding granularity, there are approximately 7 million Jews in the US, which means this 250K community represents roughly 4% of all Jews. Given that (from what I gather) all examples of the practice are contained within this enclave, calling it "commonplace" is a mischaracterization at best. It is a practice held by a very small group within the broader community, which means calling this commonplace for Judaism is inaccurate. This is at most commonplace within a fringe group. My conclusion would be that outside of this fringe group, this method is not practiced by Jews at all.
      - prvc 4y ago
        >This is at most commonplace within a fringe group If you describe the practitioners of this as a "fringe group", on what basis do you consider the comparison (not even identification) above to a (hypothetical!) "cult" offensive? And do followers of small religions which have been stigmatized with the label "cult" not also deserve the same respect for their beliefs and protection from discrimination as other religions?
        natroniks 4y ago
        I think my gripe is the same as all racist comments. Applying something that's true for a small subset to the whole group. If you want to be specific about what type of Jews support this practice, it's a very specific community of Ultra Orthodox Jews. I tend to fall on the side of all extremism being bad, so if someone wants to say the most extreme practitioners of a given religion are bad, then that's fine. But one should not don't talk about Jews as a whole when it is but a small subset within the Ultra Orthodox community.

I have googled it, nothing I've read describes it as common or main stream. Many describe it as being performed only within a very small segment of the ultra orthodox community. I haven't found a place with reliable stats, which is unfortunate, but here is a paragraph with a recent and prety clear comment from a leading Jewish authority https://www.thehastingscenter.org/ritual-circumcision-ban-metzitzah-bpeh/ https://www.thehastingscenter.org/ritual-circumcision-ban-me... Most mohels, even among the Orthodox, do use a sterile pipette, avoiding direct oral-genital contact. In 2005, the Rabbinical Council of America, the main union of modern Orthodox rabbis, issued a statement urging the abandonment of direct suction. Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a medical ethicist and dean of Yeshiva University’s (Orthodox) rabbinical school, was quoted in The JewishDaily Forward as saying: “There is no requirement to make metzitzah b’peh. The Talmud says plainly it is not part of the ritual but belongs to the medical, post-surgical component. There is no doubt that insistence on metzitzah b’peh is wrong. I firmly believe that making metzitzah b’pehis a criminal act.” Do you have sources showing this practice is commonly accepted?

natroniks 4y ago
PS this says (estimates) 3600 children a year. That's 3600 too many, but far from "common place" in my understanding of the term. I can't predict how many Jewish males are born each year, but if someone wants to provide that, I'd be curious to know what portion these 3600 represents.
- nyolfen 4y ago
  it says 3,600 a year in new york; this does not sound like an esoteric fringe practice, but at least a sizeable minority
  - natroniks 4y ago
    The only community that practices this archaic ritual is in NYC, so I'm not sure the specificity matters in this case. Let me also point out that the community is estimated to comprise 250K, "many" though not all of whom practice this. Avoiding granularity, there are approximately 7 million Jews in the US, which means this 250K community represents roughly 4% of all Jews. Given that (from what I gather) all examples of the practice are contained within this enclave, calling it "commonplace" is a mischaracterization at best. It is a practice held by a very small group within the broader community, which means calling this commonplace for Judaism is inaccurate. This is at most commonplace within a fringe group. My conclusion would be that outside of this fringe group, this method is not practiced by Jews at all.
    - prvc 4y ago
      >This is at most commonplace within a fringe group If you describe the practitioners of this as a "fringe group", on what basis do you consider the comparison (not even identification) above to a (hypothetical!) "cult" offensive? And do followers of small religions which have been stigmatized with the label "cult" not also deserve the same respect for their beliefs and protection from discrimination as other religions?
      - natroniks 4y ago
        I think my gripe is the same as all racist comments. Applying something that's true for a small subset to the whole group. If you want to be specific about what type of Jews support this practice, it's a very specific community of Ultra Orthodox Jews. I tend to fall on the side of all extremism being bad, so if someone wants to say the most extreme practitioners of a given religion are bad, then that's fine. But one should not don't talk about Jews as a whole when it is but a small subset within the Ultra Orthodox community.