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I absolutely hate stuff like this. My net worth has grown substantially in the last several years, however my income has actually gone down in that time. So d

I absolutely hate stuff like this. My net worth has grown substantially in the last several years, however my income has actually gone down in that time. So do I have an income of millions of dollars? I haven't sold anything that has appreciated (and I don't intend to). Elon Musk's net worth may have increased, and most certainly Elon Musk is much, much richer than I am, and has a higher income, but this shell game of conflating "income" and "net worth" is just stupid. There are examples here like: "If you buy a donut, thats like Elon buying a dunkin donuts franchise!" Yeah, except I don't sell property or land to buy donuts. How much money does Elon actually take per year in income is the relevant question here.

lern_too_spel 4y ago
Elon Musk borrows against his assets to pay for things. You could too.
- thepasswordis 4y ago
  In fact I did exactly that to buy a Tesla!
- HWR_14 4y ago
  Many Americans do. Cash out refinancing of homes is very popular
prescriptivist 4y ago
Elon was able to leverage his vast personal wealth to secure loans to _buy Twitter_. His purchasing power doesn't extend solely to what he is able to liquidate. In any case he can liquidate a million dollars a day in holdings and burn it in a barrel and it wouldn't move the market in a meaningful way. In fact he could tweet that and people would probably buy more of his meme stocks. You seem to be peeved about a distinction that is not worth making at the scale we are talking about.
- thepasswordis 4y ago
  I'm annoyed that people feel the need to lie in order to make a point, when the point would have easily been made without the lie. If they just said: Elon makes $200 MILLION dollars a year, then the point would still be just as valid, and it wouldn't be a lie. It's the same idiocy involved in people talking about needing to tax people more money. They're bait and switch income with net worth, which are radically different things.
  - prescriptivist 4y ago
    We don't know what Elon makes a year because money gets very weird at those levels. Loans are effectively free so you don't have to "make money". Accounting chicanery is pervasive. So you have to start somewhere, which is a statement that should apply to revising how we tax ultra-wealthy people as well.
  - notahacker 4y ago
    > If they just said: Elon makes $200 MILLION dollars a year, then the point would still be just as valid, and it wouldn't be a lie. Obviously it would a lie to claim that somebody who doubled their net worth to >$200bn last year having earned all that fortune in quarter of a century, and who earned a $23bn performance bonus last quarter earns "only" $200m a year. Whereas the $120bn appreciation in the value of Musk's assets the website highlighted might be unrepresentative of his typical annual earnings, it actually is how much he earned last year, unlike the much smaller number you made up.
    - kortilla 4y ago
      > it actually is how much he earned last year No it’s not. It’s how much his assets appreciated. If he tried to sell that much it doesn’t convert to cash that easily.
- kortilla 4y ago
slg 4y ago
Once you reach a certain level of wealth, your net worth increasing becomes a substitute for income because these people live off the debt backed by their illiquid assets. That allows them to avoid a large tax bill. Take out a $1b loan using $10b in assets as collateral. When that $1b loan comes due, your net worth has grown to $15b. Take out a $2b loan, pay off the original loan and have $1b left to live on. No taxes are paid because no gains have been realized and loans aren't taxable.
- bko 4y ago
  > Once you reach a certain level of wealth, your net worth increasing becomes a substitute for income because these people live of the debt backed by their illiquid assets. That allows them to avoid a large tax bill. Income is periodic. I get a salary every year. I can spend that amount every year as long as I'm employed at the same salary. Elon Musk can't spend 220 billion every year. If you want to compare net worth to income you should look at if he were to sell his shares and put it in a safe annuity earning 4% a year or so in perpetuity. So take his wealth, and multiply it by 4%. Also note that the annuity won't grow, unlike my income. > Take out a $1b loan using $10b in assets as collateral. When that $1b loan comes due, your net worth has grown to $15b. So you can expect his assets to grow at 50% a year? Here's a life hack: invest in Tesla if you think its going to grow 50% a year. Then even with $100,000 invested today would have you become a billionaire in 23 years!
  - slg 4y ago
    Notice I said "your net worth increasing becomes a substitute for income" and not "your net worth becomes a substitute for income". These billionaires can get periodic influxes of cash through taking loans on their increased net worth. So I agree Elon's $220b net worth isn't directly comparable to my income, but the $121b increase in his net worth is pretty comparable to my income. The numbers I made up in that example are obviously made up. I included them to illustrate my point and not as a prediction that all billionaires see their net worth increase 50% every year. That said, Elon's net worth went up over 100% last year.
    - deleted 4y ago
SMAAART 4y ago
I hear you, I am not keep of this type "propaganda" either, it's inciting to say the least. It compares and contrasts the 0.01% with the rest of the world. Silly? Maybe. Maybe the intent is actually malice. People should study and comprehend Normal Distribution, and how it applies to virtual everything. Mic drop. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution
SteveDR 4y ago
Well, IIRC Musk doesn’t technically have a salary and maybe (?) the target audience for this site doesn’t know their own net worth off-hand. So I could see why they’d make that choice.
mhh__ 4y ago
Why is it the relevant question?
stevenjgarner 4y ago
I agree whole-heartedly with you and that too was my initial reaction, yet you obviously did not persevere. The website is not about how trivial your income is compared with Elon's but how significantly wealthy most of us are vs "10% of the world, or over 750 million people, (who) live in extreme poverty on $1.90 or less a day." Take a moment to do it again and take it to the end. Having the wealth to even participate in this conversation makes us all truly fortunate.
- koonsolo 4y ago
  Thanks for pointing this out! I now persevered and indeed it will end in you being a 1%-ter.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

lern_too_spel 4y ago

Elon Musk borrows against his assets to pay for things. You could too.

thepasswordis 4y ago
In fact I did exactly that to buy a Tesla!
HWR_14 4y ago
Many Americans do. Cash out refinancing of homes is very popular

prescriptivist 4y ago

Elon was able to leverage his vast personal wealth to secure loans to _buy Twitter_. His purchasing power doesn't extend solely to what he is able to liquidate. In any case he can liquidate a million dollars a day in holdings and burn it in a barrel and it wouldn't move the market in a meaningful way. In fact he could tweet that and people would probably buy more of his meme stocks. You seem to be peeved about a distinction that is not worth making at the scale we are talking about.

thepasswordis 4y ago
I'm annoyed that people feel the need to lie in order to make a point, when the point would have easily been made without the lie. If they just said: Elon makes $200 MILLION dollars a year, then the point would still be just as valid, and it wouldn't be a lie. It's the same idiocy involved in people talking about needing to tax people more money. They're bait and switch income with net worth, which are radically different things.
- prescriptivist 4y ago
  We don't know what Elon makes a year because money gets very weird at those levels. Loans are effectively free so you don't have to "make money". Accounting chicanery is pervasive. So you have to start somewhere, which is a statement that should apply to revising how we tax ultra-wealthy people as well.
- notahacker 4y ago
  > If they just said: Elon makes $200 MILLION dollars a year, then the point would still be just as valid, and it wouldn't be a lie. Obviously it would a lie to claim that somebody who doubled their net worth to >$200bn last year having earned all that fortune in quarter of a century, and who earned a $23bn performance bonus last quarter earns "only" $200m a year. Whereas the $120bn appreciation in the value of Musk's assets the website highlighted might be unrepresentative of his typical annual earnings, it actually is how much he earned last year, unlike the much smaller number you made up.
  - kortilla 4y ago
    > it actually is how much he earned last year No it’s not. It’s how much his assets appreciated. If he tried to sell that much it doesn’t convert to cash that easily.
kortilla 4y ago

slg 4y ago

Once you reach a certain level of wealth, your net worth increasing becomes a substitute for income because these people live off the debt backed by their illiquid assets. That allows them to avoid a large tax bill. Take out a $1b loan using $10b in assets as collateral. When that $1b loan comes due, your net worth has grown to $15b. Take out a $2b loan, pay off the original loan and have $1b left to live on. No taxes are paid because no gains have been realized and loans aren't taxable.

bko 4y ago
> Once you reach a certain level of wealth, your net worth increasing becomes a substitute for income because these people live of the debt backed by their illiquid assets. That allows them to avoid a large tax bill. Income is periodic. I get a salary every year. I can spend that amount every year as long as I'm employed at the same salary. Elon Musk can't spend 220 billion every year. If you want to compare net worth to income you should look at if he were to sell his shares and put it in a safe annuity earning 4% a year or so in perpetuity. So take his wealth, and multiply it by 4%. Also note that the annuity won't grow, unlike my income. > Take out a $1b loan using $10b in assets as collateral. When that $1b loan comes due, your net worth has grown to $15b. So you can expect his assets to grow at 50% a year? Here's a life hack: invest in Tesla if you think its going to grow 50% a year. Then even with $100,000 invested today would have you become a billionaire in 23 years!
- slg 4y ago
  Notice I said "your net worth increasing becomes a substitute for income" and not "your net worth becomes a substitute for income". These billionaires can get periodic influxes of cash through taking loans on their increased net worth. So I agree Elon's $220b net worth isn't directly comparable to my income, but the $121b increase in his net worth is pretty comparable to my income. The numbers I made up in that example are obviously made up. I included them to illustrate my point and not as a prediction that all billionaires see their net worth increase 50% every year. That said, Elon's net worth went up over 100% last year.
  - deleted 4y ago

SMAAART 4y ago

I hear you, I am not keep of this type "propaganda" either, it's inciting to say the least. It compares and contrasts the 0.01% with the rest of the world. Silly? Maybe. Maybe the intent is actually malice. People should study and comprehend Normal Distribution, and how it applies to virtual everything. Mic drop. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution

SteveDR 4y ago

Well, IIRC Musk doesn’t technically have a salary and maybe (?) the target audience for this site doesn’t know their own net worth off-hand. So I could see why they’d make that choice.

mhh__ 4y ago

Why is it the relevant question?

stevenjgarner 4y ago

I agree whole-heartedly with you and that too was my initial reaction, yet you obviously did not persevere. The website is not about how trivial your income is compared with Elon's but how significantly wealthy most of us are vs "10% of the world, or over 750 million people, (who) live in extreme poverty on $1.90 or less a day." Take a moment to do it again and take it to the end. Having the wealth to even participate in this conversation makes us all truly fortunate.

koonsolo 4y ago
Thanks for pointing this out! I now persevered and indeed it will end in you being a 1%-ter.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]