5 ms·

Back in the early 90's (in the US) I had a friend who was a college student from China. In the common area of her dorm there was a huge wall-size Rand-McNally m

Back in the early 90's (in the US) I had a friend who was a college student from China. In the common area of her dorm there was a huge wall-size Rand-McNally map of the world. We were looking it over. "There's China" I said. "And there's Taiwan." "You know Taiwan is really not that big." she said. "What do you mean?" "Map makers show it larger than it really is in order to exaggerate its importance." I was a little weirded out by that idea. This girl was pretty intelligent, she seemed to know some math and logical thinking. She was in the process of becoming a CPA. For better or worse I responded with practical analysis: "How would that even work? You and I could go buy maps right now for navigating ships and airplanes, those would have to be accurate in order to function. We could compare them to this one and if they are noticeably different we could complain and the company that made the map would lose face. Why would Rand-McNally give a shit about the political importance of Taiwan anyway, enough to risk their own credibility?" "They just do. All map makers do this." She would not be convinced.

narkee 15y ago
Are you suggesting that in this case the blogger is similarly misinformed or deluded? I don't think it's unreasonable to think that China is manipulating its map data, particularly when other people here in the mapping industry have already said this is well known in their field.
- marshray 15y ago
  Are you suggesting that in this case the blogger is similarly misinformed or deluded? No.
- PakG1 15y ago
  I think the gp is telling an anecdote that is an interesting example of the difficulty that exists in China for certain things, and in no way states that the blogger is misinformed or deluded. An interesting anecdote from my side, though not necessarily map-related. But in the same theme as gp. This summer, I was volunteering teaching English to rural kids in China. One of the kids kept writing this big message on blackboards and stuff that Osama bin Laden was still alive. One of the local volunteers read what he was writing and was upset at him for fooling around so much. Later, I asked her what's up, and she told me what he was writing. WTF. So in the team meeting later that night, I talk with my fellow volunteers about this, and wonder if I have some kind of crazy kid on my hands. Then the Chinese volunteers told me not to worry about it, he's just writing stuff. I'm like, "What do you mean, how do you know?" Then they started talking about how people distrust the government these days, are unhappy, etc. I'm like, "What the heck does that have to do with anything?" Turns out that all over the Chinese web, this was a really popular meme where Chinese youth displayed their sarcasm at anything the government said. Even things that they knew to be true could not be true because the government said it. It was only a meme, much like the Hitler videos we see on Youtube. Scared me for a day. But suffice it to say, people in China aren't so trusting of what their nation says as before. Living here, I hear it from my colleagues and friends every day. That being said, there's very little right now that they can do to voice their opinion because it's still a touchy atmosphere. This lady is very informative. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/yang_lan.html http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/yang_lan.html
- pyre 15y ago
  Seems more likely that Chinese maps make Taiwan smaller, and when people in China point to the differences between locally made maps and foreign maps, they are told that foreign map makers are playing some sort of anti-China political game. Or, people have it ingrained in them that Taiwan is small, and they all know that Chinese map-makers are politically motivated, so they assume that all map-makers are equally politically motivated.
  - marshray 15y ago
    My take on it at the time was that she had been convinced at some point that all Western maps were made that way for political reasons. I didn't get the sense that she was reacting to the size on the map we were perceiving.
rmc 15y ago
those would have to be accurate in order to function The most common form of map, Mercator projection, greatly distorts the area of land around the equator, and makes northernly (& southerly) lands appear much larger. It makes Canada, Greenland, Alaska, et al. appear quite large compared to Africa & South America. But those areas are much larger. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercator_projection#Uses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercator_projection#Uses
- marshray 15y ago
  Yes I was familiar with that at the time, but I don't recall if it was mentioned in our particular discussion. In any case, Taiwan is relatively far South in its region so the projection effect would tend to be reduced. It would actually have the effect of making mainland China look larger.
  - rmc 15y ago
    Yes, the mercator projection is not at play here, but I'm pointing out how you can sell a 'wrong' map and not be commercially penalized.
- nate_meurer 15y ago
  Mercator distortion has nothing to do with the anecdote in the parent post. There the allegation was of deliberate inaccuracy, which renders a map non-functional for most purposes. All 2D map projections produce either distortion or discontinuity. Neither of these affects a map's functionality in the way that outright inaccuracy does.
  - rmc 15y ago
    Oh yes, I agree that this is an example of purely the geometry, not a political attempt. But I know people who , upon seeing the distortion, were surprised at how many maps were "wrong". This shows that you can't rely on the market to weed out inaccurate maps. After all, a map that had the south at the top (rather than the bottom) would be viewed as "wrong" and would be penalized with poor sales. The idea that the market will always produce the best map is not true.
orijing 15y ago
> "There's China" I said. "And there's Taiwan." You knew her disposition. (You were her friend). What was the goal of that comment, to incent a fruitless political discussion? Edit: Whoa there. Why the downvotes? I am genuinely curious why the parent decided it was a good idea to stoke that discussion. I have friends whose political views are far from mine, and there are just DMZ topics that I don't dare bring up. For example, a discussion about the Federal Reserve and Operation Twist would be fruitless with my Libertarian friends, who just have a different opinion on that, which I believe is irreconcilable. I would say that's the same situation with Taiwan-strait politics.
- barrkel 15y ago
  Facts as concrete as physical dimensions are not really open to political debate.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - marshray 15y ago
    They are until the body politic has access to reproducible data. 20 years ago most people in the world did not have access to satellite imagery or location data. Even today, in this thread right here, we're still trying to figure out whether or not the the misalignment of the road data and the satellite images is merely a coordinate system error or a systematic attempt to deceive.
  - JoshTriplett 15y ago
    You say that, but you've clearly never gone up against an adversary with a complete lack of boundaries around what they'll do to achieve their political goals. Politics often manipulates facts. There are a lot of topics I'd love to say aren't open to political debate, because I personally consider them axioms of basic sanity, but the existence of people who disagree unfortunately leaves the debate open.
- marshray 15y ago
  My sense was she thought she was giving me a fact about geography I didn't know, as simple as that. Later, she, another friend from China, and I had a more in-depth discussion about Taiwan. It was really interesting to get that perspective. P.S. I have no idea why you're being downvoted either.
ljf 15y ago
Apparently Britain is also 'bigger' than it should be (it's really far smaller than France) on many maps, purely because the maps were made by the UK: http://noisydecentgraphics.typepad.com/design/2008/07/this-isnt-engla.html http://noisydecentgraphics.typepad.com/design/2008/07/this-i...

narkee 15y ago

Are you suggesting that in this case the blogger is similarly misinformed or deluded? I don't think it's unreasonable to think that China is manipulating its map data, particularly when other people here in the mapping industry have already said this is well known in their field.

marshray 15y ago
Are you suggesting that in this case the blogger is similarly misinformed or deluded? No.
PakG1 15y ago
I think the gp is telling an anecdote that is an interesting example of the difficulty that exists in China for certain things, and in no way states that the blogger is misinformed or deluded. An interesting anecdote from my side, though not necessarily map-related. But in the same theme as gp. This summer, I was volunteering teaching English to rural kids in China. One of the kids kept writing this big message on blackboards and stuff that Osama bin Laden was still alive. One of the local volunteers read what he was writing and was upset at him for fooling around so much. Later, I asked her what's up, and she told me what he was writing. WTF. So in the team meeting later that night, I talk with my fellow volunteers about this, and wonder if I have some kind of crazy kid on my hands. Then the Chinese volunteers told me not to worry about it, he's just writing stuff. I'm like, "What do you mean, how do you know?" Then they started talking about how people distrust the government these days, are unhappy, etc. I'm like, "What the heck does that have to do with anything?" Turns out that all over the Chinese web, this was a really popular meme where Chinese youth displayed their sarcasm at anything the government said. Even things that they knew to be true could not be true because the government said it. It was only a meme, much like the Hitler videos we see on Youtube. Scared me for a day. But suffice it to say, people in China aren't so trusting of what their nation says as before. Living here, I hear it from my colleagues and friends every day. That being said, there's very little right now that they can do to voice their opinion because it's still a touchy atmosphere. This lady is very informative. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/yang_lan.html http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/yang_lan.html
pyre 15y ago
Seems more likely that Chinese maps make Taiwan smaller, and when people in China point to the differences between locally made maps and foreign maps, they are told that foreign map makers are playing some sort of anti-China political game. Or, people have it ingrained in them that Taiwan is small, and they all know that Chinese map-makers are politically motivated, so they assume that all map-makers are equally politically motivated.
- marshray 15y ago
  My take on it at the time was that she had been convinced at some point that all Western maps were made that way for political reasons. I didn't get the sense that she was reacting to the size on the map we were perceiving.

rmc 15y ago

those would have to be accurate in order to function The most common form of map, Mercator projection, greatly distorts the area of land around the equator, and makes northernly (& southerly) lands appear much larger. It makes Canada, Greenland, Alaska, et al. appear quite large compared to Africa & South America. But those areas are much larger. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercator_projection#Uses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercator_projection#Uses

marshray 15y ago
Yes I was familiar with that at the time, but I don't recall if it was mentioned in our particular discussion. In any case, Taiwan is relatively far South in its region so the projection effect would tend to be reduced. It would actually have the effect of making mainland China look larger.
- rmc 15y ago
  Yes, the mercator projection is not at play here, but I'm pointing out how you can sell a 'wrong' map and not be commercially penalized.
nate_meurer 15y ago
Mercator distortion has nothing to do with the anecdote in the parent post. There the allegation was of deliberate inaccuracy, which renders a map non-functional for most purposes. All 2D map projections produce either distortion or discontinuity. Neither of these affects a map's functionality in the way that outright inaccuracy does.
- rmc 15y ago
  Oh yes, I agree that this is an example of purely the geometry, not a political attempt. But I know people who , upon seeing the distortion, were surprised at how many maps were "wrong". This shows that you can't rely on the market to weed out inaccurate maps. After all, a map that had the south at the top (rather than the bottom) would be viewed as "wrong" and would be penalized with poor sales. The idea that the market will always produce the best map is not true.

orijing 15y ago

> "There's China" I said. "And there's Taiwan." You knew her disposition. (You were her friend). What was the goal of that comment, to incent a fruitless political discussion? Edit: Whoa there. Why the downvotes? I am genuinely curious why the parent decided it was a good idea to stoke that discussion. I have friends whose political views are far from mine, and there are just DMZ topics that I don't dare bring up. For example, a discussion about the Federal Reserve and Operation Twist would be fruitless with my Libertarian friends, who just have a different opinion on that, which I believe is irreconcilable. I would say that's the same situation with Taiwan-strait politics.

barrkel 15y ago
Facts as concrete as physical dimensions are not really open to political debate.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- marshray 15y ago
  They are until the body politic has access to reproducible data. 20 years ago most people in the world did not have access to satellite imagery or location data. Even today, in this thread right here, we're still trying to figure out whether or not the the misalignment of the road data and the satellite images is merely a coordinate system error or a systematic attempt to deceive.
- JoshTriplett 15y ago
  You say that, but you've clearly never gone up against an adversary with a complete lack of boundaries around what they'll do to achieve their political goals. Politics often manipulates facts. There are a lot of topics I'd love to say aren't open to political debate, because I personally consider them axioms of basic sanity, but the existence of people who disagree unfortunately leaves the debate open.
marshray 15y ago
My sense was she thought she was giving me a fact about geography I didn't know, as simple as that. Later, she, another friend from China, and I had a more in-depth discussion about Taiwan. It was really interesting to get that perspective. P.S. I have no idea why you're being downvoted either.

ljf 15y ago

Apparently Britain is also 'bigger' than it should be (it's really far smaller than France) on many maps, purely because the maps were made by the UK: http://noisydecentgraphics.typepad.com/design/2008/07/this-isnt-engla.html http://noisydecentgraphics.typepad.com/design/2008/07/this-i...