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IIRC Apple doesn't do user testing because they know better. I have 20/20 vision and I had to turn on contrast and button shapes, the new design is so bland an

IIRC Apple doesn't do user testing because they know better. I have 20/20 vision and I had to turn on contrast and button shapes, the new design is so bland and unreadable. Macs have large screens and that's why... they changed all dialogs to be tall narrow boxes with center-aligned text? Properly labeled color-differentiated icons are now indistinguishable grays crowding the title bar removing all affordances (from being recognizable to being able where you can drag the window). Keyboard access is being removed or broken across all first-party apps. Desktop metaphors like multiple columns, tabs etc. are removed in favor of tall narrow strips of gray text that surely look great on a screen that fits your palm. But that's not the screen Mac OS operates on. The new designs break Apple's own HIGs and other recommendations like WCAG. So please tell me what it is you like about new designs and, more importantly, what the hell is their purpose?

Klonoar 4y ago
>IIRC Apple doesn't do user testing because they know better. Citation needed... >The new designs break Apple's own HIGs and other recommendations like WCAG. You may have missed it, but they redid that HIG and released it during the latest WWDC. This train has left the station and it ain't backin' up. >Keyboard access is being removed or broken across all first-party apps. How about you... list some of these apps? I've been using macOS since Snow Leopard and all my muscle memory on the keyboard still works. The newer designs feel smoother and less constrained, and don't fundamentally feel at odds with how I work. I will, however, give you this point with little argument: >I have 20/20 vision and I had to turn on contrast and button shapes, the new design is so bland and unreadable. Someone needs to smack Apple UI designers upside the head and tell them to stop using 255,255,255,1 as the light mode color. With how good their screens are it's just way too much. I use dark mode exclusively and maybe that's why I have less complaints?
- saagarjha 4y ago
  Just because Apple has put something in their HIG doesn’t mean they’ll keep it there.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > You may have missed it, but they redid that HIG and released it during the latest WWDC. They didn't redo it, they redesigned it. All the recommendations they are breaking are still there. > How about you... list some of these apps? I've been using macOS since Snow Leopard and all my muscle memory on the keyboard still works. Except Messages all of their new first party apps have horrible to no keyboard access: Home, Music, App Store... > The newer designs feel smoother and less constrained How can it be less constrained when they literally crammed toolbar items into less space and redesigned dialog to be narrow? :) Edit: there's of course more, as evidenced by the redesign of System Preferences: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31746133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31746133 And IIRC they are not properly keyboard accessible either.
  - Klonoar 4y ago
    >They didn't redo it, they redesigned it. My point is that they have clearly acknowledged it's a thing and that it matters. >Music I really don't get your point here... I'm listening to Music right now and just spent a few minutes trying to use the keyboard. I don't really feel unable to do so. >How can it be less constrained when they literally crammed toolbar items into less space and redesigned dialog to be narrow? :) The dialog that they're... expanding in Ventura? Where they acknowledged it should be bigger for certain cases? I've not been bothered by it in Big Sur/Monterey otherwise since most apps (understandably) aren't cramming shit in there anyway. You're welcome to dislike change, I just think you're really stretching here.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      > I'm listening to Music right now and just spent a few minutes trying to use the keyboard. I don't really feel unable to do so. I'm not subscribed, but here's my experience. When Music just starts, Tab is locked to a single pane. Cmd+F to find something, how do I exit the search? Visually Esc does nothing. While in Search Tab is locked to Search field. After Esc tabbing first does nothing, then cycles through top buttons, then goes somewhere? There's no way to focus sidebar with keyboard. None of sublists there have a dedicated shortcut. If you select something in the sidebar, Tab, And then Shift-Tab, the focus doesn't go back. Once you've selected something (radio, or album, or artist, or...), how do you go back? Focus is broken. Select an album, and tell me how exactly to get to the song list and navigate through it (hint: when you cannot see where it's gone, you can press Arro Down, and start going through the list). That's 30 seconds of using this amazing first-party app. And that's before we start listsing all the ways it's badly designed, badly implemented, and breaks multiple Apple HIGs. > The dialog that they're... expanding in Ventura? Where they acknowledged it should be bigger for certain cases? Key word: "certain cases". So, they acknowledged nothing, but grudgingly reverted this inane behaviour for some random unknown length. As if desktop displays are have so little horizontal space. > You're welcome to dislike change, I just think you're really stretching here. Definitely not stretching. Changes to GUI have to justified. None of the changes since BigSur are. They are aggressively removing readabilty, affordances, plain humane contrast, etc. They introduce touch-only paradigms to a touchless OS. And so on. To quote people much smarter than I [1][2][3]: --- start quote --- ...the work of people who put iOS first. People who by now think in iOS terms. People who view the venerable Mac OS user interface as an older person whose traits must be experimented upon, plastic surgery after plastic surgery, until this person looks younger. Unfortunately the effect is more like this person ends up looking… weird. These people look at the Mac’s UI and (that’s the impression, at least) don’t really understand it. Its foundations come from a past that almost seems inscrutable to them. Usability cues and features are all wrinkles to them. iOS and iPadOS don’t have these strange wrinkles, they muse. We must hide them. We’ll make this spectacular facelift and we’ll hide them, one by one. Mac OS will look as young (and foolish, cough) as iOS! --- Going through Big Sur’s user interface with a fine-tooth comb reveals arbitrary design decisions that prioritise looks over function, and therefore reflect an un-learning of tried-and-true user interface and usability mechanics that used to make for a seamless, thoughtful, enjoyable Mac experience. ...an interface designer — who really should think like a chess player in these circumstances — can’t simply say It seemed like a good idea at the time to justify a UI change. There has to be a plan, a design. “Let’s try this, let’s try that” is not a strategy ...every time I point out some terrible or questionable UI design decision in Big Sur, there’s always, always someone who tells me “You’re just resisting change! You’re not willing to adapt!” without even entertaining the thought that, hey, maybe it is terrible UI design. --- Apple’s approach when presenting the last few major Mac OS releases has always felt as if the most important thing to work on an operating system were its look & feel, rather than how this foundational tool can actually improve people’s work or tasks. This insistence around the most superficial aspects of a graphical user interface — the look — often reminds me of the constant redesign iterations of some third-party apps in an attempt to make them more alluring to customers and to increase sales. The hyperfocus on always looking new and fresh --- --- end quote --- [1] https://morrick.me/archives/9368 https://morrick.me/archives/9368 [2] http://morrick.me/archives/9150 http://morrick.me/archives/9150 [3] https://morrick.me/archives/9407 https://morrick.me/archives/9407

Klonoar 4y ago

>IIRC Apple doesn't do user testing because they know better. Citation needed... >The new designs break Apple's own HIGs and other recommendations like WCAG. You may have missed it, but they redid that HIG and released it during the latest WWDC. This train has left the station and it ain't backin' up. >Keyboard access is being removed or broken across all first-party apps. How about you... list some of these apps? I've been using macOS since Snow Leopard and all my muscle memory on the keyboard still works. The newer designs feel smoother and less constrained, and don't fundamentally feel at odds with how I work. I will, however, give you this point with little argument: >I have 20/20 vision and I had to turn on contrast and button shapes, the new design is so bland and unreadable. Someone needs to smack Apple UI designers upside the head and tell them to stop using 255,255,255,1 as the light mode color. With how good their screens are it's just way too much. I use dark mode exclusively and maybe that's why I have less complaints?

saagarjha 4y ago
Just because Apple has put something in their HIG doesn’t mean they’ll keep it there.
dmitriid 4y ago
> You may have missed it, but they redid that HIG and released it during the latest WWDC. They didn't redo it, they redesigned it. All the recommendations they are breaking are still there. > How about you... list some of these apps? I've been using macOS since Snow Leopard and all my muscle memory on the keyboard still works. Except Messages all of their new first party apps have horrible to no keyboard access: Home, Music, App Store... > The newer designs feel smoother and less constrained How can it be less constrained when they literally crammed toolbar items into less space and redesigned dialog to be narrow? :) Edit: there's of course more, as evidenced by the redesign of System Preferences: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31746133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31746133 And IIRC they are not properly keyboard accessible either.
- Klonoar 4y ago
  >They didn't redo it, they redesigned it. My point is that they have clearly acknowledged it's a thing and that it matters. >Music I really don't get your point here... I'm listening to Music right now and just spent a few minutes trying to use the keyboard. I don't really feel unable to do so. >How can it be less constrained when they literally crammed toolbar items into less space and redesigned dialog to be narrow? :) The dialog that they're... expanding in Ventura? Where they acknowledged it should be bigger for certain cases? I've not been bothered by it in Big Sur/Monterey otherwise since most apps (understandably) aren't cramming shit in there anyway. You're welcome to dislike change, I just think you're really stretching here.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > I'm listening to Music right now and just spent a few minutes trying to use the keyboard. I don't really feel unable to do so. I'm not subscribed, but here's my experience. When Music just starts, Tab is locked to a single pane. Cmd+F to find something, how do I exit the search? Visually Esc does nothing. While in Search Tab is locked to Search field. After Esc tabbing first does nothing, then cycles through top buttons, then goes somewhere? There's no way to focus sidebar with keyboard. None of sublists there have a dedicated shortcut. If you select something in the sidebar, Tab, And then Shift-Tab, the focus doesn't go back. Once you've selected something (radio, or album, or artist, or...), how do you go back? Focus is broken. Select an album, and tell me how exactly to get to the song list and navigate through it (hint: when you cannot see where it's gone, you can press Arro Down, and start going through the list). That's 30 seconds of using this amazing first-party app. And that's before we start listsing all the ways it's badly designed, badly implemented, and breaks multiple Apple HIGs. > The dialog that they're... expanding in Ventura? Where they acknowledged it should be bigger for certain cases? Key word: "certain cases". So, they acknowledged nothing, but grudgingly reverted this inane behaviour for some random unknown length. As if desktop displays are have so little horizontal space. > You're welcome to dislike change, I just think you're really stretching here. Definitely not stretching. Changes to GUI have to justified. None of the changes since BigSur are. They are aggressively removing readabilty, affordances, plain humane contrast, etc. They introduce touch-only paradigms to a touchless OS. And so on. To quote people much smarter than I [1][2][3]: --- start quote --- ...the work of people who put iOS first. People who by now think in iOS terms. People who view the venerable Mac OS user interface as an older person whose traits must be experimented upon, plastic surgery after plastic surgery, until this person looks younger. Unfortunately the effect is more like this person ends up looking… weird. These people look at the Mac’s UI and (that’s the impression, at least) don’t really understand it. Its foundations come from a past that almost seems inscrutable to them. Usability cues and features are all wrinkles to them. iOS and iPadOS don’t have these strange wrinkles, they muse. We must hide them. We’ll make this spectacular facelift and we’ll hide them, one by one. Mac OS will look as young (and foolish, cough) as iOS! --- Going through Big Sur’s user interface with a fine-tooth comb reveals arbitrary design decisions that prioritise looks over function, and therefore reflect an un-learning of tried-and-true user interface and usability mechanics that used to make for a seamless, thoughtful, enjoyable Mac experience. ...an interface designer — who really should think like a chess player in these circumstances — can’t simply say It seemed like a good idea at the time to justify a UI change. There has to be a plan, a design. “Let’s try this, let’s try that” is not a strategy ...every time I point out some terrible or questionable UI design decision in Big Sur, there’s always, always someone who tells me “You’re just resisting change! You’re not willing to adapt!” without even entertaining the thought that, hey, maybe it is terrible UI design. --- Apple’s approach when presenting the last few major Mac OS releases has always felt as if the most important thing to work on an operating system were its look & feel, rather than how this foundational tool can actually improve people’s work or tasks. This insistence around the most superficial aspects of a graphical user interface — the look — often reminds me of the constant redesign iterations of some third-party apps in an attempt to make them more alluring to customers and to increase sales. The hyperfocus on always looking new and fresh --- --- end quote --- [1] https://morrick.me/archives/9368 https://morrick.me/archives/9368 [2] http://morrick.me/archives/9150 http://morrick.me/archives/9150 [3] https://morrick.me/archives/9407 https://morrick.me/archives/9407