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> Newborns do feel pain. Presumably it doesn't switch on from nothing at birth, and pre-borns feel pain too. I'm pro-choice on abortion, but perhaps we should

> Newborns do feel pain. Presumably it doesn't switch on from nothing at birth, and pre-borns feel pain too. I'm pro-choice on abortion, but perhaps we should at least anaesthetise the fetus before late term abortions. Is that done? Or is their pain denied? Or is compassion toward that pain too difficult in the circumstances?

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rootusrootus 4y ago
IIRC the consensus is that a fetus likely starts to experience pain in the second trimester. Over 90% of all abortions happen in the first trimester.
- anon291 4y ago
  Do they anesthesize the child in the other 10%? EDIT: Answered my own question: apparently only in Utah as of 2016: http://www.healthlawpolicy.org/fetal-anesthesia/ http://www.healthlawpolicy.org/fetal-anesthesia/`
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    I can't answer that. I know the basic statistics, as it was not long ago a question my wife and I sought out the answers to, but I don't know anything deeper about medical policies. I suspect that answer is probably some version of no. Aren't most abortions just induced miscarriages anyway?
    - anon291 4y ago
      I was asking about the minority that aren't. Typically, exceptions to the rule are the most interesting.
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
        Sure, but when it comes to macro policy they should be weighted appropriately.
        anon291 4y ago
        I typically agree, but not when it comes to this. Very few percentage of Americans are executed, but we all agree that the way in which they are ought to be humane, for some definition of humane. Most people today seem to agree that 'painless' is a desirable property. So if it's true fetuses feel pain past some time in pregnancy, then I think it's imperative than anesthesia is used, and that medicine create such a thing, lest we betray our own convictions.
        rootusrootus 4y ago
        At the risk of running way off into a tangent... > we all agree that the way in which they are ought to be humane Do we? As far as I can tell, the currently accepted execution protocol (for lethal injection) is more about ensuring that the execution looks painless, and only secondarily about whether or not it is in fact painless. We don't use drugs to paralyze muscles and stop the heart when we humanely euthanize someone, why do we do this for executions?
        mc32 4y ago
        That’s a good question. Why couldn’t they use the cocktail given to assisted suicide subjects in Switzerland? Or any variety of cocktails (OD) known to be lethal to people? This still leaves an open question though. Why are people more concerned about the mode of execution of an adult vs the mode of termination of a foetus that could survive ex-utero in and neo-natal ICU?
        rootusrootus 4y ago
        Almost no fetuses are terminated anywhere near the date of viability, much less afterwards. It is a non-issue. The vast majority of terminations happen before week 12, and no fetus is viable until sometime around week 22 (and only with heroic measures).
    - loeg 4y ago
      Yeah, and miscarriage itself is just the lay terminology for a spontaneous abortion.
      - anon291 4y ago
        A miscarriage / stillbirth isn't the same occurence as an intentional abortion, because if you intend to end a fetal life, you must also take care to make sure the ending is humane. People die naturally in ways we would never allow a person to do intentionally (assisted suicide does not mean you get to assist someone to die in any way possible)
        mike00632 4y ago
        User23 4y ago
        You appear to be confusing abortions and inductions. Both procedures end a pregnancy, but the former by definition involves the intent to kill the unborn child. In the case of a dead child, the procedure is an induction that results in a stillbirth. Or, if necessary, a caesarean section. Regardless an abortion is impossible on account of there no longer being an unborn baby in that case.
        rootusrootus 4y ago
        "Abortion" refers to the pregnancy, not the fetus. So yes, in fact, you can abort a pregnancy when the fetus is already dead.
        User23 4y ago
        It refers to both: “Induced termination of a pregnancy with destruction of the embryo or fetus.” As you and anyone else capable of using a dictionary can see, killing the unborn child is a defining characteristic of an abortion and differentiates it from other pregnancy ending procedures.
  - jjulius 4y ago
    >Do they anesthesize the child in the other 10%? That answer is heavily nuanced and is likely difficult to answer. First, there's the likelihood that some of that 10% occurred very early in the second trimester but prior to the development of the ability to feel pain. One should also consider the circumstances of each specific abortion relative to whether or not they would feel pain. >EDIT: Answered my own question: apparently only in Utah as of 2016: http://www.healthlawpolicy.org/fetal-anesthesia/ http://www.healthlawpolicy.org/fetal-anesthesia/ Your link very clearly states that Utah is the only state, as of 2016, that legally requires the use of anesthesia. Lack of legal requirement does not mean a lack of anesthesia whatsoever in other states. Edit: This sort of thing is never as black-and-white as one would like it to be, which complicates these discussions given the high level of emotions involved.
    - anon291 4y ago
      > Lack of legal requirement does not mean a lack of anesthesia whatsoever in other states. I guess I was asking if anyone knew, because that article is the only thing I could find on it.
      - jjulius 4y ago
        This doesn't answer your question, but I thought it was worth sharing in the broader context and actually changes the figures we're looking at just a bit. >The problem? Thorough reviews of medical evidence reject the idea that fetuses can actually feel pain at 20 weeks. They don't fully develop the proper neurological structures to feel pain until later, around 29 to 30 weeks in the third trimester.[1] >The bigger problem? There's really no such thing as "fetal anesthesia" in standard medical practice. And the law doesn't specify how doctors are supposed to make it happen.[1] So now, goalposts have shifted to pain not being present until 29+ weeks, which is the third trimester. >Abortions at or after 21 weeks are uncommon, and represent 1% of all abortions in the US.[2] Which means that the question you're asking pertains to likely less than 1% of abortions in the US, rather than 10%. [1]https://www.vox.com/2016/3/30/11331414/utah-abortion-anesthesia-doctors-dumbfounded https://www.vox.com/2016/3/30/11331414/utah-abortion-anesthe... [2]https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortions-later-in-pregnancy/ https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortion...
  - nonameiguess 4y ago
    Anyone getting an abortion (at least an invasive late term abortion that isn't just induced miscarriage) is going to have some form of anesthesia administered. Since they share a bloodstream, giving general anesthetic to the mother also anesthetizes the fetus. Whether local shares an effect or not I think depends on the type, but it is usually administered along with a sedative. It appears from this that most sedatives other than muscle relaxers will also sedate the fetus, but whether local anesthetic crosses the placenta depends on a lot of things: https://www.openanesthesia.org/placental_transfer_anesth_drugs/ https://www.openanesthesia.org/placental_transfer_anesth_dru... Here is a study of how effective various forms of anesthesia are for abortions, but it's not going to tell you the prevalence with which each form is actually used: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK561096/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK561096/ Unfortunately, for various reasons, there is quite a bit of need for privacy on both the patients and the providers parts as the act of getting or performing an abortion will make you a target in a lot of places.
  - RobertRoberts 4y ago
    Maybe they can't mandate it? There could be legal precedence that anything that can feel pain must be a living being and therefore to end it's life could be considered a criminal act.
    - anon291 4y ago
      Then perhaps we should reconsider the act? But really, states have broad authority to do whatever. They can legalize murder if they really wanted.
  - erichocean 4y ago
    > Do they anesthesize the child in the other 10%? Other first world countries—the ones with universal healthcare—solve this conundrum by not performing abortions on the 10% that do feel pain.
    - anon291 4y ago
      In general, I am a proponent of European style abortion laws. I believe today the Supreme Court will release their opinion on Mississippi's abortion law, which emulates the european ones. Hopefully, we can come to a reasonable compromise.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > IIRC the consensus is that a fetus likely starts to experience pain in the second trimester. Over 90% of all abortions happen in the first trimester. Isn't that just a different way of saying that 10% of abortions are painful to the fetus? To me, that seems like a significant number. Why not just legislate that those 10% fetuses get some pain relief? Is there any opposition to this?
scarmig 4y ago
Makes me wonder how painful going through birth is for the infant. I can't imagine it's pleasant.
- deleted 4y ago
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kybernetyk 4y ago
- thehappypm 4y ago
  What makes you think it’s murder? Are you also against IVF?
  - kybernetyk 4y ago
qgin 4y ago
It's thought that the structures required for consciousness haven't developed until around 20 weeks. I'm not sure how based in evidence that position is.
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rootusrootus 4y ago

IIRC the consensus is that a fetus likely starts to experience pain in the second trimester. Over 90% of all abortions happen in the first trimester.

anon291 4y ago
Do they anesthesize the child in the other 10%? EDIT: Answered my own question: apparently only in Utah as of 2016: http://www.healthlawpolicy.org/fetal-anesthesia/ http://www.healthlawpolicy.org/fetal-anesthesia/`
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I can't answer that. I know the basic statistics, as it was not long ago a question my wife and I sought out the answers to, but I don't know anything deeper about medical policies. I suspect that answer is probably some version of no. Aren't most abortions just induced miscarriages anyway?
  - anon291 4y ago
    I was asking about the minority that aren't. Typically, exceptions to the rule are the most interesting.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      Sure, but when it comes to macro policy they should be weighted appropriately.
      - anon291 4y ago
        I typically agree, but not when it comes to this. Very few percentage of Americans are executed, but we all agree that the way in which they are ought to be humane, for some definition of humane. Most people today seem to agree that 'painless' is a desirable property. So if it's true fetuses feel pain past some time in pregnancy, then I think it's imperative than anesthesia is used, and that medicine create such a thing, lest we betray our own convictions.
        rootusrootus 4y ago
        At the risk of running way off into a tangent... > we all agree that the way in which they are ought to be humane Do we? As far as I can tell, the currently accepted execution protocol (for lethal injection) is more about ensuring that the execution looks painless, and only secondarily about whether or not it is in fact painless. We don't use drugs to paralyze muscles and stop the heart when we humanely euthanize someone, why do we do this for executions?
        mc32 4y ago
        That’s a good question. Why couldn’t they use the cocktail given to assisted suicide subjects in Switzerland? Or any variety of cocktails (OD) known to be lethal to people? This still leaves an open question though. Why are people more concerned about the mode of execution of an adult vs the mode of termination of a foetus that could survive ex-utero in and neo-natal ICU?
        rootusrootus 4y ago
        Almost no fetuses are terminated anywhere near the date of viability, much less afterwards. It is a non-issue. The vast majority of terminations happen before week 12, and no fetus is viable until sometime around week 22 (and only with heroic measures).
  - loeg 4y ago
    Yeah, and miscarriage itself is just the lay terminology for a spontaneous abortion.
    - anon291 4y ago
      A miscarriage / stillbirth isn't the same occurence as an intentional abortion, because if you intend to end a fetal life, you must also take care to make sure the ending is humane. People die naturally in ways we would never allow a person to do intentionally (assisted suicide does not mean you get to assist someone to die in any way possible)
      - mike00632 4y ago
        User23 4y ago
        You appear to be confusing abortions and inductions. Both procedures end a pregnancy, but the former by definition involves the intent to kill the unborn child. In the case of a dead child, the procedure is an induction that results in a stillbirth. Or, if necessary, a caesarean section. Regardless an abortion is impossible on account of there no longer being an unborn baby in that case.
        rootusrootus 4y ago
        "Abortion" refers to the pregnancy, not the fetus. So yes, in fact, you can abort a pregnancy when the fetus is already dead.
        User23 4y ago
        It refers to both: “Induced termination of a pregnancy with destruction of the embryo or fetus.” As you and anyone else capable of using a dictionary can see, killing the unborn child is a defining characteristic of an abortion and differentiates it from other pregnancy ending procedures.
- jjulius 4y ago
  >Do they anesthesize the child in the other 10%? That answer is heavily nuanced and is likely difficult to answer. First, there's the likelihood that some of that 10% occurred very early in the second trimester but prior to the development of the ability to feel pain. One should also consider the circumstances of each specific abortion relative to whether or not they would feel pain. >EDIT: Answered my own question: apparently only in Utah as of 2016: http://www.healthlawpolicy.org/fetal-anesthesia/ http://www.healthlawpolicy.org/fetal-anesthesia/ Your link very clearly states that Utah is the only state, as of 2016, that legally requires the use of anesthesia. Lack of legal requirement does not mean a lack of anesthesia whatsoever in other states. Edit: This sort of thing is never as black-and-white as one would like it to be, which complicates these discussions given the high level of emotions involved.
  - anon291 4y ago
    > Lack of legal requirement does not mean a lack of anesthesia whatsoever in other states. I guess I was asking if anyone knew, because that article is the only thing I could find on it.
    - jjulius 4y ago
      This doesn't answer your question, but I thought it was worth sharing in the broader context and actually changes the figures we're looking at just a bit. >The problem? Thorough reviews of medical evidence reject the idea that fetuses can actually feel pain at 20 weeks. They don't fully develop the proper neurological structures to feel pain until later, around 29 to 30 weeks in the third trimester.[1] >The bigger problem? There's really no such thing as "fetal anesthesia" in standard medical practice. And the law doesn't specify how doctors are supposed to make it happen.[1] So now, goalposts have shifted to pain not being present until 29+ weeks, which is the third trimester. >Abortions at or after 21 weeks are uncommon, and represent 1% of all abortions in the US.[2] Which means that the question you're asking pertains to likely less than 1% of abortions in the US, rather than 10%. [1]https://www.vox.com/2016/3/30/11331414/utah-abortion-anesthesia-doctors-dumbfounded https://www.vox.com/2016/3/30/11331414/utah-abortion-anesthe... [2]https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortions-later-in-pregnancy/ https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortion...
- nonameiguess 4y ago
  Anyone getting an abortion (at least an invasive late term abortion that isn't just induced miscarriage) is going to have some form of anesthesia administered. Since they share a bloodstream, giving general anesthetic to the mother also anesthetizes the fetus. Whether local shares an effect or not I think depends on the type, but it is usually administered along with a sedative. It appears from this that most sedatives other than muscle relaxers will also sedate the fetus, but whether local anesthetic crosses the placenta depends on a lot of things: https://www.openanesthesia.org/placental_transfer_anesth_drugs/ https://www.openanesthesia.org/placental_transfer_anesth_dru... Here is a study of how effective various forms of anesthesia are for abortions, but it's not going to tell you the prevalence with which each form is actually used: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK561096/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK561096/ Unfortunately, for various reasons, there is quite a bit of need for privacy on both the patients and the providers parts as the act of getting or performing an abortion will make you a target in a lot of places.
- RobertRoberts 4y ago
  Maybe they can't mandate it? There could be legal precedence that anything that can feel pain must be a living being and therefore to end it's life could be considered a criminal act.
  - anon291 4y ago
    Then perhaps we should reconsider the act? But really, states have broad authority to do whatever. They can legalize murder if they really wanted.
- erichocean 4y ago
  > Do they anesthesize the child in the other 10%? Other first world countries—the ones with universal healthcare—solve this conundrum by not performing abortions on the 10% that do feel pain.
  - anon291 4y ago
    In general, I am a proponent of European style abortion laws. I believe today the Supreme Court will release their opinion on Mississippi's abortion law, which emulates the european ones. Hopefully, we can come to a reasonable compromise.
lelanthran 4y ago
> IIRC the consensus is that a fetus likely starts to experience pain in the second trimester. Over 90% of all abortions happen in the first trimester. Isn't that just a different way of saying that 10% of abortions are painful to the fetus? To me, that seems like a significant number. Why not just legislate that those 10% fetuses get some pain relief? Is there any opposition to this?

scarmig 4y ago

Makes me wonder how painful going through birth is for the infant. I can't imagine it's pleasant.

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kybernetyk 4y ago

thehappypm 4y ago
What makes you think it’s murder? Are you also against IVF?
- kybernetyk 4y ago

qgin 4y ago

It's thought that the structures required for consciousness haven't developed until around 20 weeks. I'm not sure how based in evidence that position is.

deleted 4y ago

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