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So "do this or we'll invade"? Why does it matter if a NATO country is on the border anyway? In the age of ICBMs, stealth bombers, and drones is the real concer

So "do this or we'll invade"? Why does it matter if a NATO country is on the border anyway? In the age of ICBMs, stealth bombers, and drones is the real concern that some large NATO force would march over the border for a land invasion of Russia?

mc32 4y ago
Isn't it much the same as VietNam, don't help the NVA or we'll help them split and take over NV (though it worked out the other way around)?
- themitigating 4y ago
  Whataboutism
  - mc32 4y ago
    Nope. It's just acknowledging how the world works (realpolitik --despite what anyone would love to think is a principled approach)
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Our discussion was on the good and bad of the situation, that's what the pope was going on about. Doesn't matter if that's how the world works.
kingofpandora 4y ago
The US hasn't exactly dropped the Monroe Doctrine.
- simonblack 4y ago
  And yet doesn't recognise other countries' "Monroe Doctrines". I'm waiting for the Chinese to declare their version of the Monroe Doctrine forbidding Western Nations from East Asia. Imagine the screams from the US. <grin>
  - trasz 4y ago
    Chinese doctrine is explained in their constitution and it’s pretty much the exact opposite of Monroe.
ozzythecat 4y ago
> Why does it matter if a NATO country is on the border anyway? This question, no matter how well intentioned, is irrelevant. Russia views NATO as an existential threat. It’s irrelevant whether you agree with that NATO is such a threat or not. Russia does not want NATO on or by its borders. They’ve been making this clear since the collapse of the Soviet Union. You can disagree with them, argue in favor of NATO expanding eastward, or specifically making Ukraine a member state, etc. These are all moot points. Russia has made their position extremely clear. The war is obviously not a surprise.
- themitigating 4y ago
  It's not a surprise but it's still wrong. Also his opinion that NATO is a threat needs to have some backing otherwise I don't accept it as a valid fear
  - ozzythecat 4y ago
    “Wrong” or “right” is meaningless. The only alternative is war, and that’s what we have happening now. Tell us something. Why does it matter to the US when China tries to expand its sphere of influence over HK or islands in the Pacific? What would happen if a Chinese bloc propagated itself to the Western Hemisphere and established an alliance with Cuba or South America? Surely the same argument - that none of it matters in the day of nuclear weapons and ballistics capabilities - that same argument would valid, right? But would Washington stand for this? Absolutely not. Cuba is still being punished to this day. The Monroe doctrine is still very real. Russia warned about this for decades. The West basically told Russia that they don’t matter, that they’re a has been, and NATO will do whatever it wants. Well, here we have the consequences. Now Bidens administration is quietly admitting that the war is becoming an economic liability for the US, but I digress.
    - trasz 4y ago
      There is a fundamental difference here: US and China are superpowers, as was USSR. Russia, however, is just Nigeria with nukes.

mc32 4y ago

Isn't it much the same as VietNam, don't help the NVA or we'll help them split and take over NV (though it worked out the other way around)?

themitigating 4y ago
Whataboutism
- mc32 4y ago
  Nope. It's just acknowledging how the world works (realpolitik --despite what anyone would love to think is a principled approach)
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Our discussion was on the good and bad of the situation, that's what the pope was going on about. Doesn't matter if that's how the world works.

kingofpandora 4y ago

The US hasn't exactly dropped the Monroe Doctrine.

simonblack 4y ago
And yet doesn't recognise other countries' "Monroe Doctrines". I'm waiting for the Chinese to declare their version of the Monroe Doctrine forbidding Western Nations from East Asia. Imagine the screams from the US. <grin>
- trasz 4y ago
  Chinese doctrine is explained in their constitution and it’s pretty much the exact opposite of Monroe.

ozzythecat 4y ago

> Why does it matter if a NATO country is on the border anyway? This question, no matter how well intentioned, is irrelevant. Russia views NATO as an existential threat. It’s irrelevant whether you agree with that NATO is such a threat or not. Russia does not want NATO on or by its borders. They’ve been making this clear since the collapse of the Soviet Union. You can disagree with them, argue in favor of NATO expanding eastward, or specifically making Ukraine a member state, etc. These are all moot points. Russia has made their position extremely clear. The war is obviously not a surprise.

themitigating 4y ago
It's not a surprise but it's still wrong. Also his opinion that NATO is a threat needs to have some backing otherwise I don't accept it as a valid fear
- ozzythecat 4y ago
  “Wrong” or “right” is meaningless. The only alternative is war, and that’s what we have happening now. Tell us something. Why does it matter to the US when China tries to expand its sphere of influence over HK or islands in the Pacific? What would happen if a Chinese bloc propagated itself to the Western Hemisphere and established an alliance with Cuba or South America? Surely the same argument - that none of it matters in the day of nuclear weapons and ballistics capabilities - that same argument would valid, right? But would Washington stand for this? Absolutely not. Cuba is still being punished to this day. The Monroe doctrine is still very real. Russia warned about this for decades. The West basically told Russia that they don’t matter, that they’re a has been, and NATO will do whatever it wants. Well, here we have the consequences. Now Bidens administration is quietly admitting that the war is becoming an economic liability for the US, but I digress.
  - trasz 4y ago
    There is a fundamental difference here: US and China are superpowers, as was USSR. Russia, however, is just Nigeria with nukes.