5 ms·

> Appeasement would be a better choice? Pope Francis says Ukraine war was ‘perhaps somehow provoked’ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/14/pope-franci

> Appeasement would be a better choice? Pope Francis says Ukraine war was ‘perhaps somehow provoked’ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/14/pope-francis-ukraine-war-provoked-russian-troops https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/14/pope-francis-u... "The pontiff warned [..] against what he said was a fairytale perception of the conflict as good versus evil" "We need to move away from the usual Little Red Riding Hood pattern, in that Little Red Riding Hood was good and the wolf was the bad one [..] something global is emerging and the elements are very much entwined."

rajup 4y ago
Well that’s a new one, is there an interpretation of red riding hood where the wolf is good?
- vladstudio 4y ago
  if there is none, it is definitely worth writing.
- slim 4y ago
- pydry 4y ago
  This isnt little red riding hood. It's a crips (US/NATO) vs. bloods (Russia) turf war with Ukraine trying to join the crips for protection and beat off the bloods using nazi paramilitaries. Geopolitics aint no fairy tale. It's gang warfare writ large.
- rapjr9 4y ago
  Tanith Lee, "Wolfland" - "Little Red Riding Hood gets turned on its head. The wolf is frightening, but it's not the villian in this tale." https://www.amazon.com/Red-Blood-Tales-Sisters-Grimmer/dp/0879977906 https://www.amazon.com/Red-Blood-Tales-Sisters-Grimmer/dp/08...
themitigating 4y ago
What makes the pope, a man who has dedicated his life to the study of religion and God an expert in global politics, that a quote from him has more value than a comment from anyone here. He mentions in the article that an unnamed world leader told him Russia would get upset at NATO being so close to their border. Putin has publicly mentioned this multiple times before the war with Ukraine. Finally, Ukraine has the right to join any alliance it wants and for Russia to invade over that is bullshit. If you want to bring up promises about not joining NATO then we must talk about promises not to invade. Russia has already done this before in 2014
- ozzythecat 4y ago
  > Finally, Ukraine has the right to join any alliance it wants and for Russia to invade over that is bullshit. In geopolitics, nobody has any particular rights. Whoever has the bigger stick and better propaganda gets their way. One could argue that there’s no reason to have sanctions on Cuba, that Palestinians should also have the right to self determination, that America doesn’t have the right to interfere in the developing world. That’s not how the world works, regardless of right or wrong. IMO - the west could have prevented this war. Regardless of what Ukraine wants, an agreement that NATO will not expand eastwards for 60 years in exchange for Russia not invading. That was all we needed.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    So "do this or we'll invade"? Why does it matter if a NATO country is on the border anyway? In the age of ICBMs, stealth bombers, and drones is the real concern that some large NATO force would march over the border for a land invasion of Russia?
    - mc32 4y ago
      Isn't it much the same as VietNam, don't help the NVA or we'll help them split and take over NV (though it worked out the other way around)?
      - 4y ago
ozzythecat 4y ago
Is this a surprise? They’ve been vocally against NATO’s eastward expansion for a long time, and Ukraine was a known line in the sand. Of course, one could argue Ukraine has a right to self determination, but we effectively egged them on and on. And now here we are - Ukraine is getting destroyed in a war of attrition, more or less a proxy war.
- ghostwriter 4y ago
  > Of course, one could argue Ukraine has a right to self determination, but we effectively egged them on and on. One could argue that, but that would be their eagerness to ignore and dismiss important details of Ukraine's founding legal documents that made their independence possible in the first place. If one reads the Declaration on the State Sovereignty of Ukraine from 1990 [1], one will find it in Chapter IX: "The Ukrainian SSR solemnly declares its intention to become a permanently neutral state in the future, which does not participate in military blocs and adheres to three non-nuclear principles: not to accept, produce or acquire nuclear weapons". Ukraine's constitutional sovereignty has always been and still is predicated on respecting these conditions, but a whole lot of politicians, foreign and domestic, want you to believe otherwise because it serves their political goals. [1] https://zakon-rada-gov-ua.translate.goog/laws/show/55-12?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp#Text https://zakon-rada-gov-ua.translate.goog/laws/show/55-12?_x_...
  - trasz 4y ago
    Predicated by whom? The only entity to enforce Ukrainian constitution is Ukraine itself, not Russia.

rajup 4y ago

Well that’s a new one, is there an interpretation of red riding hood where the wolf is good?

vladstudio 4y ago
if there is none, it is definitely worth writing.
slim 4y ago
pydry 4y ago
This isnt little red riding hood. It's a crips (US/NATO) vs. bloods (Russia) turf war with Ukraine trying to join the crips for protection and beat off the bloods using nazi paramilitaries. Geopolitics aint no fairy tale. It's gang warfare writ large.
rapjr9 4y ago
Tanith Lee, "Wolfland" - "Little Red Riding Hood gets turned on its head. The wolf is frightening, but it's not the villian in this tale." https://www.amazon.com/Red-Blood-Tales-Sisters-Grimmer/dp/0879977906 https://www.amazon.com/Red-Blood-Tales-Sisters-Grimmer/dp/08...

themitigating 4y ago

What makes the pope, a man who has dedicated his life to the study of religion and God an expert in global politics, that a quote from him has more value than a comment from anyone here. He mentions in the article that an unnamed world leader told him Russia would get upset at NATO being so close to their border. Putin has publicly mentioned this multiple times before the war with Ukraine. Finally, Ukraine has the right to join any alliance it wants and for Russia to invade over that is bullshit. If you want to bring up promises about not joining NATO then we must talk about promises not to invade. Russia has already done this before in 2014

ozzythecat 4y ago
> Finally, Ukraine has the right to join any alliance it wants and for Russia to invade over that is bullshit. In geopolitics, nobody has any particular rights. Whoever has the bigger stick and better propaganda gets their way. One could argue that there’s no reason to have sanctions on Cuba, that Palestinians should also have the right to self determination, that America doesn’t have the right to interfere in the developing world. That’s not how the world works, regardless of right or wrong. IMO - the west could have prevented this war. Regardless of what Ukraine wants, an agreement that NATO will not expand eastwards for 60 years in exchange for Russia not invading. That was all we needed.
- themitigating 4y ago
  So "do this or we'll invade"? Why does it matter if a NATO country is on the border anyway? In the age of ICBMs, stealth bombers, and drones is the real concern that some large NATO force would march over the border for a land invasion of Russia?
  - mc32 4y ago
    Isn't it much the same as VietNam, don't help the NVA or we'll help them split and take over NV (though it worked out the other way around)?
    - 4y ago

ozzythecat 4y ago

Is this a surprise? They’ve been vocally against NATO’s eastward expansion for a long time, and Ukraine was a known line in the sand. Of course, one could argue Ukraine has a right to self determination, but we effectively egged them on and on. And now here we are - Ukraine is getting destroyed in a war of attrition, more or less a proxy war.

ghostwriter 4y ago
> Of course, one could argue Ukraine has a right to self determination, but we effectively egged them on and on. One could argue that, but that would be their eagerness to ignore and dismiss important details of Ukraine's founding legal documents that made their independence possible in the first place. If one reads the Declaration on the State Sovereignty of Ukraine from 1990 [1], one will find it in Chapter IX: "The Ukrainian SSR solemnly declares its intention to become a permanently neutral state in the future, which does not participate in military blocs and adheres to three non-nuclear principles: not to accept, produce or acquire nuclear weapons". Ukraine's constitutional sovereignty has always been and still is predicated on respecting these conditions, but a whole lot of politicians, foreign and domestic, want you to believe otherwise because it serves their political goals. [1] https://zakon-rada-gov-ua.translate.goog/laws/show/55-12?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp#Text https://zakon-rada-gov-ua.translate.goog/laws/show/55-12?_x_...
- trasz 4y ago
  Predicated by whom? The only entity to enforce Ukrainian constitution is Ukraine itself, not Russia.