3 ms·

Russia could stop the bloodshed today by simply withdrawing their forces from the region. The LNR/DNR forces would surrender (they are reliant on Russia's suppo

Russia could stop the bloodshed today by simply withdrawing their forces from the region. The LNR/DNR forces would surrender (they are reliant on Russia's support) and peace and stability could be achieved rapidly. The power is in their hands. It's important to remember that this war has really been going on since 2014. Eastern rebel forces were starting to crumble until Russia began offering direct military assistance (Not just material but also boots-on-the-ground. Ukraine captured VDV and Spetsnaz POWs and would regularly exchange Russian troops with the DNR/LPR for POW swaps). Edit: One of the big lessons Europe learned during the first half of the 20th century is that nationalist/ethnic conquests over land and border disputes makes everyone worse-off (World War I), and such acts should be powerfully deterred - through force, because capitulation doesn't work (World War II). It seems people are forgetting these lessons.

pydry 4y ago
They withdraw now and a year later theres a NATO base in Mariupol. Donbas is the location from which the Nazis launched the attack on the USSR which almost lost them WW2. Its strategic significance cant be understated. Finland and Sweden are not as important.
- spamizbad 4y ago
  There's already NATO bases in the Barents Sea (and Turkey via the Black Sea) in addition along their land borders via the baltic states (minus Belarus). Their actions have also pushed Finland and Sweden into the arms of NATO. The thing about the Cuban missile crisis is that Kennedy was able to get Russian missiles AWAY from the United States. Russia's actions are getting hardware placed closer. And why is that? Probably because Russia will tolerate it in exchange for territorial expansion. Even after the 2014 invasion of Crimea there was open talk about how NATO was obsolete and a waste of money and effort. Russia could've probably eliminated any NATO threat without firing a single shot. It was already seen as a relic of the cold war. Instead, Russia's actions have given a renewed justification for NATO's existence.
  - pydry 4y ago
    >The thing about the Cuban missile crisis is that Kennedy was able to get Russian missiles AWAY from the United States. It only happened in the first place because the US put missiles in Turkey. Take them away and suddenly the soviet union is ok with removing the cuban nukes. In this case a simple "Ukraine wont be joining NATO" would have prevented this war. >Russia's actions are getting hardware placed closer. The strategic significance of the other locations is far less than the donbas. Note the whole "location where they almost lost ww2" thing. It's kind of important. The US/NATO wanted a base in Mariupol because its the perfect location to threaten Russia, and they almost got it. Finland was the consolation prize.
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      It's amazing how many people just can't seem to see any reason for Russia's behavior other than making their leader into a cartoon who just wants to do evil things to be evil. Honestly, since the Soviet Union collapsed, NATO has only expanded and crept closer and closer to Russia. How are they supposed to feel? As for this particular thing - the areas they are want are mainly Russian anyways and recent Ukrainian pol's have done everything they can to marginalize the people and their Russian cultures in these regions. Russia isn't perfect but this is a nuanced thing and was preventable through diplomacy.
      - spamizbad 4y ago
        Boris Yeltsin wanted it to be a long-term goal of Russia to join NATO - a measure supported by the United States (source: https://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/21/world/soviet-disarray-yeltsin-says-russia-seeks-to-join-nato.html https://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/21/world/soviet-disarray-yel... or https://archive.ph/31hkF https://archive.ph/31hkF) And they started down that road earnestly in the 1990s. But it required extensive military and certain Democratic reforms Russia didn't want to commit to so they abandoned it. And that's totally fine: nobody is required to join NATO. Ultimately, since the early 90s, Russia helped form the CSTO which serves a similar function. > recent Ukrainian pol's have done everything they can to marginalize the people and their Russian cultures in these regions. The current Ukrainian president is a native Russian speaker and was quite popular in Russia. They have spent the last 8 years dealing with a Russian-instigated (and supported) civil war with the so-called LPR and DPR. Is the southern United States oppressed because the Union didn't allow it to secede? That certainly was the argument people used to justify segregation! Anyway, the stated justification for this war is not NATO expansion but "denazification"

pydry 4y ago

They withdraw now and a year later theres a NATO base in Mariupol. Donbas is the location from which the Nazis launched the attack on the USSR which almost lost them WW2. Its strategic significance cant be understated. Finland and Sweden are not as important.

spamizbad 4y ago
There's already NATO bases in the Barents Sea (and Turkey via the Black Sea) in addition along their land borders via the baltic states (minus Belarus). Their actions have also pushed Finland and Sweden into the arms of NATO. The thing about the Cuban missile crisis is that Kennedy was able to get Russian missiles AWAY from the United States. Russia's actions are getting hardware placed closer. And why is that? Probably because Russia will tolerate it in exchange for territorial expansion. Even after the 2014 invasion of Crimea there was open talk about how NATO was obsolete and a waste of money and effort. Russia could've probably eliminated any NATO threat without firing a single shot. It was already seen as a relic of the cold war. Instead, Russia's actions have given a renewed justification for NATO's existence.
- pydry 4y ago
  >The thing about the Cuban missile crisis is that Kennedy was able to get Russian missiles AWAY from the United States. It only happened in the first place because the US put missiles in Turkey. Take them away and suddenly the soviet union is ok with removing the cuban nukes. In this case a simple "Ukraine wont be joining NATO" would have prevented this war. >Russia's actions are getting hardware placed closer. The strategic significance of the other locations is far less than the donbas. Note the whole "location where they almost lost ww2" thing. It's kind of important. The US/NATO wanted a base in Mariupol because its the perfect location to threaten Russia, and they almost got it. Finland was the consolation prize.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    It's amazing how many people just can't seem to see any reason for Russia's behavior other than making their leader into a cartoon who just wants to do evil things to be evil. Honestly, since the Soviet Union collapsed, NATO has only expanded and crept closer and closer to Russia. How are they supposed to feel? As for this particular thing - the areas they are want are mainly Russian anyways and recent Ukrainian pol's have done everything they can to marginalize the people and their Russian cultures in these regions. Russia isn't perfect but this is a nuanced thing and was preventable through diplomacy.
    - spamizbad 4y ago
      Boris Yeltsin wanted it to be a long-term goal of Russia to join NATO - a measure supported by the United States (source: https://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/21/world/soviet-disarray-yeltsin-says-russia-seeks-to-join-nato.html https://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/21/world/soviet-disarray-yel... or https://archive.ph/31hkF https://archive.ph/31hkF) And they started down that road earnestly in the 1990s. But it required extensive military and certain Democratic reforms Russia didn't want to commit to so they abandoned it. And that's totally fine: nobody is required to join NATO. Ultimately, since the early 90s, Russia helped form the CSTO which serves a similar function. > recent Ukrainian pol's have done everything they can to marginalize the people and their Russian cultures in these regions. The current Ukrainian president is a native Russian speaker and was quite popular in Russia. They have spent the last 8 years dealing with a Russian-instigated (and supported) civil war with the so-called LPR and DPR. Is the southern United States oppressed because the Union didn't allow it to secede? That certainly was the argument people used to justify segregation! Anyway, the stated justification for this war is not NATO expansion but "denazification"