5 ms·

> So then how does one explain the unending UI regressions with every single major update? That's easy: not everyone agrees they're regressions.

grishka 4y ago
They clearly are regressions because they confuse many people and make a worse use of the same screen area. Also what are the problems being solved by these redesigns and rearrangements? What was solved by going flat in 10.9 -> 10.10? What was solved by going even flatter, and using the dreaded SF Symbols icons everywhere, in 10.15 -> 11.0? It's a done product — it's been one for quite a while. Could they just stop meddling with the UX already and maybe rewrite their PDF parser in a memory-safe language instead?
- Klonoar 4y ago
  People who complain are loud. Just because they’re loud doesn’t make the UI changes bad. I find I legitimately prefer the newer UI of Big Sur onwards. I just don’t feel the need to shout it from the heavens. An alternative take: you’re really going to suggest that one of the richest companies in the world doesn’t do extensive UI/UX testing before putting things out the door? They’re not just saying “yeah, this looks nice - ship it!”.
  - CoryAlexMartin 4y ago
    Why do you prefer the new UI? I can make a list of reasons why it's bad. The only reason I can see why anyone would prefer it is because it looks "cleaner", but that cleanness is artificial and gets in the way when trying to parse and use the software. A good UI designer makes buttons look like buttons so our brain can quickly recognize them as such, without mistaking them for something else. A good designer has the window title in the same place no matter the application, so we know where to look before we even look. A good designer gives us a place to reliably perform common actions such as dragging the window. We use our computers daily, and even imperceptible improvements to cognitive load and the amount of time it takes to perform actions make a difference over time. When I use my 2009 iMac running Snow Leaoprd, I perceive a reduction in friction compared to the latest macOS versions, and even compared to Catalina, which I use as my primary OS.
    - audunw 4y ago
      > but that cleanness is artificial and gets in the way when trying to parse and use the software. I really don't agree. When software/UIs were simpler, the buttons screaming loudly "I AM A BUTTON!" worked. Now it quickly gets way too busy. It was important when almost everybody was a computer novice and couldn't detect subtle hints and conventions about what is a button and what isn't. Now? Not as much. Look at screenshots of older iTunes vs Apple Music. I can feel absolutely no difference in how fast my eyes finds play/pause buttons. I don't need borders around the icons when there's not a whole bunch of skeuomorphic noise around them, such that there being any visual complexity at all (icon itself) instantly grabs attention. I really can't see a single thing I think the old iTunes interface does better for common use cases. Not that the old iTunes was bad per se, just a different UI for a different time. I agree that often UI designers go too far, but I think you can see a bit of back and forth going on, trying to tune into the perfect balance of simplicity and clear signaling. Obviously, everyone is different. So it's not going to be perfect for everybody no matter which way they do it.
      - CoryAlexMartin 4y ago
        I'm running a copy of iTunes 8 right now, and I disagree. I also disagree that the old style of design is less suited towards complicated software. Apple's iWork software feels like it's suffered the most in terms of usability as a result of modern UI design. Humans evolved in a world where things have depth, light and shadows. Even you admit that back when user interfaces were designed with that in mind, those interfaces were more friendly to novices. By ignoring these aspects of our visual perception, you're requiring prior knowledge on the part of the user, while simultaneously making it difficult to acquire that knowledge. That's not a good thing, even if you assert that "flat" interfaces are no worse once you get used to them (which I clearly disagree with).
    - Klonoar 4y ago
      >The only reason I can see why anyone would prefer it is because it looks "cleaner", but that cleanness is artificial and gets in the way when trying to parse and use the software. That's... your opinion, though. I don't particularly feel any friction when trying to navigate or use modern macOS, at least from a usability perspective. Even the example everyone throws about - the settings redesign - I fundamentally don't find to be that bad. It follows modern UI trends so I can intuit how it works, thus if I needed to poke around to find something I'm not really left wondering how to do so. On top of that, it's not a tool you're in constantly, and as long as there's a search box, you're probably going to use that anyway as a power user. I don't even think I've tried stumbling around the mess that's System Preferences recently, I just straight up head for the search bar. >We use our computers daily, and even imperceptible improvements to cognitive load and the amount of time it takes to perform actions make a difference over time. I've been using macOS since... Leopard or Snow Leopard, ish. The adjustments over the years haven't ever thrown me for more than a few minutes. I preferred the skeuomorphic UI trend for a variety of reasons (of which nostalgia is included at this point) but I think modern macOS/iOS has found a decent line to ride.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    IIRC Apple doesn't do user testing because they know better. I have 20/20 vision and I had to turn on contrast and button shapes, the new design is so bland and unreadable. Macs have large screens and that's why... they changed all dialogs to be tall narrow boxes with center-aligned text? Properly labeled color-differentiated icons are now indistinguishable grays crowding the title bar removing all affordances (from being recognizable to being able where you can drag the window). Keyboard access is being removed or broken across all first-party apps. Desktop metaphors like multiple columns, tabs etc. are removed in favor of tall narrow strips of gray text that surely look great on a screen that fits your palm. But that's not the screen Mac OS operates on. The new designs break Apple's own HIGs and other recommendations like WCAG. So please tell me what it is you like about new designs and, more importantly, what the hell is their purpose?
    - Klonoar 4y ago
      >IIRC Apple doesn't do user testing because they know better. Citation needed... >The new designs break Apple's own HIGs and other recommendations like WCAG. You may have missed it, but they redid that HIG and released it during the latest WWDC. This train has left the station and it ain't backin' up. >Keyboard access is being removed or broken across all first-party apps. How about you... list some of these apps? I've been using macOS since Snow Leopard and all my muscle memory on the keyboard still works. The newer designs feel smoother and less constrained, and don't fundamentally feel at odds with how I work. I will, however, give you this point with little argument: >I have 20/20 vision and I had to turn on contrast and button shapes, the new design is so bland and unreadable. Someone needs to smack Apple UI designers upside the head and tell them to stop using 255,255,255,1 as the light mode color. With how good their screens are it's just way too much. I use dark mode exclusively and maybe that's why I have less complaints?
      - saagarjha 4y ago
        Just because Apple has put something in their HIG doesn’t mean they’ll keep it there.
      - dmitriid 4y ago
- als0 4y ago
  > It's a done product — it's been one for quite a while. Could they just stop meddling with the UX already and maybe rewrite their PDF parser in a memory-safe language instead? Can't wait for this. And the same for the e-mail app. Even just a Swift rewrite of the 'hairy' parser code would be a reasonable starting point.
  - thewebcount 4y ago
    Can you elaborate on what problem you have that this rewrite would solve? (Serious question, not trying to be combative.) I can't remember ever having any problem displaying a PDF in macOS, though I don't do anything particularly outlandish with PDFs these days. Does Preview crash frequently for you? (Or does displaying PDFs from within your own apps crash?) I haven't heard of this issue, so just curious what the problem is.
    - grishka 4y ago
      The problem is that writing a parser for a file format as complex as PDF in an unsafe language is just asking for trouble. There were many exploits already that involved a specially crafted PDF file to gain RCE, and there would probably be more, unless they do rewrite it. At this point we should just accept that it's next to impossible to write a 100% safe parser in an unsafe language.
      - thewebcount 4y ago
        Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah that makes total sense. Thanks for the explanation!
- astrange 4y ago
  > What was solved by going flat in 10.9 -> 10.10? Why are people so eager to go back to a system where you have to hire an artist who knows how to make 1000 inner bevels so you can have any custom controls or app icons?

grishka 4y ago

They clearly are regressions because they confuse many people and make a worse use of the same screen area. Also what are the problems being solved by these redesigns and rearrangements? What was solved by going flat in 10.9 -> 10.10? What was solved by going even flatter, and using the dreaded SF Symbols icons everywhere, in 10.15 -> 11.0? It's a done product — it's been one for quite a while. Could they just stop meddling with the UX already and maybe rewrite their PDF parser in a memory-safe language instead?

Klonoar 4y ago
People who complain are loud. Just because they’re loud doesn’t make the UI changes bad. I find I legitimately prefer the newer UI of Big Sur onwards. I just don’t feel the need to shout it from the heavens. An alternative take: you’re really going to suggest that one of the richest companies in the world doesn’t do extensive UI/UX testing before putting things out the door? They’re not just saying “yeah, this looks nice - ship it!”.
- CoryAlexMartin 4y ago
  Why do you prefer the new UI? I can make a list of reasons why it's bad. The only reason I can see why anyone would prefer it is because it looks "cleaner", but that cleanness is artificial and gets in the way when trying to parse and use the software. A good UI designer makes buttons look like buttons so our brain can quickly recognize them as such, without mistaking them for something else. A good designer has the window title in the same place no matter the application, so we know where to look before we even look. A good designer gives us a place to reliably perform common actions such as dragging the window. We use our computers daily, and even imperceptible improvements to cognitive load and the amount of time it takes to perform actions make a difference over time. When I use my 2009 iMac running Snow Leaoprd, I perceive a reduction in friction compared to the latest macOS versions, and even compared to Catalina, which I use as my primary OS.
  - audunw 4y ago
    > but that cleanness is artificial and gets in the way when trying to parse and use the software. I really don't agree. When software/UIs were simpler, the buttons screaming loudly "I AM A BUTTON!" worked. Now it quickly gets way too busy. It was important when almost everybody was a computer novice and couldn't detect subtle hints and conventions about what is a button and what isn't. Now? Not as much. Look at screenshots of older iTunes vs Apple Music. I can feel absolutely no difference in how fast my eyes finds play/pause buttons. I don't need borders around the icons when there's not a whole bunch of skeuomorphic noise around them, such that there being any visual complexity at all (icon itself) instantly grabs attention. I really can't see a single thing I think the old iTunes interface does better for common use cases. Not that the old iTunes was bad per se, just a different UI for a different time. I agree that often UI designers go too far, but I think you can see a bit of back and forth going on, trying to tune into the perfect balance of simplicity and clear signaling. Obviously, everyone is different. So it's not going to be perfect for everybody no matter which way they do it.
    - CoryAlexMartin 4y ago
      I'm running a copy of iTunes 8 right now, and I disagree. I also disagree that the old style of design is less suited towards complicated software. Apple's iWork software feels like it's suffered the most in terms of usability as a result of modern UI design. Humans evolved in a world where things have depth, light and shadows. Even you admit that back when user interfaces were designed with that in mind, those interfaces were more friendly to novices. By ignoring these aspects of our visual perception, you're requiring prior knowledge on the part of the user, while simultaneously making it difficult to acquire that knowledge. That's not a good thing, even if you assert that "flat" interfaces are no worse once you get used to them (which I clearly disagree with).
  - Klonoar 4y ago
    >The only reason I can see why anyone would prefer it is because it looks "cleaner", but that cleanness is artificial and gets in the way when trying to parse and use the software. That's... your opinion, though. I don't particularly feel any friction when trying to navigate or use modern macOS, at least from a usability perspective. Even the example everyone throws about - the settings redesign - I fundamentally don't find to be that bad. It follows modern UI trends so I can intuit how it works, thus if I needed to poke around to find something I'm not really left wondering how to do so. On top of that, it's not a tool you're in constantly, and as long as there's a search box, you're probably going to use that anyway as a power user. I don't even think I've tried stumbling around the mess that's System Preferences recently, I just straight up head for the search bar. >We use our computers daily, and even imperceptible improvements to cognitive load and the amount of time it takes to perform actions make a difference over time. I've been using macOS since... Leopard or Snow Leopard, ish. The adjustments over the years haven't ever thrown me for more than a few minutes. I preferred the skeuomorphic UI trend for a variety of reasons (of which nostalgia is included at this point) but I think modern macOS/iOS has found a decent line to ride.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  IIRC Apple doesn't do user testing because they know better. I have 20/20 vision and I had to turn on contrast and button shapes, the new design is so bland and unreadable. Macs have large screens and that's why... they changed all dialogs to be tall narrow boxes with center-aligned text? Properly labeled color-differentiated icons are now indistinguishable grays crowding the title bar removing all affordances (from being recognizable to being able where you can drag the window). Keyboard access is being removed or broken across all first-party apps. Desktop metaphors like multiple columns, tabs etc. are removed in favor of tall narrow strips of gray text that surely look great on a screen that fits your palm. But that's not the screen Mac OS operates on. The new designs break Apple's own HIGs and other recommendations like WCAG. So please tell me what it is you like about new designs and, more importantly, what the hell is their purpose?
  - Klonoar 4y ago
    >IIRC Apple doesn't do user testing because they know better. Citation needed... >The new designs break Apple's own HIGs and other recommendations like WCAG. You may have missed it, but they redid that HIG and released it during the latest WWDC. This train has left the station and it ain't backin' up. >Keyboard access is being removed or broken across all first-party apps. How about you... list some of these apps? I've been using macOS since Snow Leopard and all my muscle memory on the keyboard still works. The newer designs feel smoother and less constrained, and don't fundamentally feel at odds with how I work. I will, however, give you this point with little argument: >I have 20/20 vision and I had to turn on contrast and button shapes, the new design is so bland and unreadable. Someone needs to smack Apple UI designers upside the head and tell them to stop using 255,255,255,1 as the light mode color. With how good their screens are it's just way too much. I use dark mode exclusively and maybe that's why I have less complaints?
    - saagarjha 4y ago
      Just because Apple has put something in their HIG doesn’t mean they’ll keep it there.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
als0 4y ago
> It's a done product — it's been one for quite a while. Could they just stop meddling with the UX already and maybe rewrite their PDF parser in a memory-safe language instead? Can't wait for this. And the same for the e-mail app. Even just a Swift rewrite of the 'hairy' parser code would be a reasonable starting point.
- thewebcount 4y ago
  Can you elaborate on what problem you have that this rewrite would solve? (Serious question, not trying to be combative.) I can't remember ever having any problem displaying a PDF in macOS, though I don't do anything particularly outlandish with PDFs these days. Does Preview crash frequently for you? (Or does displaying PDFs from within your own apps crash?) I haven't heard of this issue, so just curious what the problem is.
  - grishka 4y ago
    The problem is that writing a parser for a file format as complex as PDF in an unsafe language is just asking for trouble. There were many exploits already that involved a specially crafted PDF file to gain RCE, and there would probably be more, unless they do rewrite it. At this point we should just accept that it's next to impossible to write a 100% safe parser in an unsafe language.
    - thewebcount 4y ago
      Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah that makes total sense. Thanks for the explanation!
astrange 4y ago
> What was solved by going flat in 10.9 -> 10.10? Why are people so eager to go back to a system where you have to hire an artist who knows how to make 1000 inner bevels so you can have any custom controls or app icons?