6 ms·

Most Americans oppose trans athletes in female sports, poll finds

30 points by Victerius 4y ago

sn0w_crash 4y ago
- J_cst 4y ago
  The fight is impressive. The female born athlete has been impressive. In a sane state of mind the challenge should be seen as unfair IMHO. Thank you for the link.
  - sn0w_crash 4y ago
    Mods why was my comment removed? I didn’t say anything remotely controversial. I posted a link to a video of a male MMA fighter beating a female fighter. This is what this topic is about. Why did you censor my comment? The mods on this site are heavily biased and everyone can see it. @Dang
    - happytoexplain 4y ago
      People flagged it - your writing in it is pretty hyperbolic/uncharitable/emotional/antagonistic (regardless of whatever opinion may lie underneath). Also, you say it was not controversial, and yet there is a lengthy comment disagreeing with you, so I'm not sure what you mean. Regardless, being "controversial" shouldn't (ideally) be considered a flaggable offense, as you're implying. Also, jumping so quickly to "I'm being censored" and "the mods are biased" is kind of more of the same attitude. HN tends to self-select for substantive writing (for now).
- MattRix 4y ago
  Your description of the fight is so hyperbolic. It’s not nearly as lopsided as you imply. I have no doubt there are current women’s MMA athletes who could beat Alana. Also the amount of toxic transphobia in the comments on that video is pretty sickening.
  - wcarron 4y ago
    Sorry, but I have to disagree. the MTF fighter is legitimately terrrrrible. They'd get lit up within 10 seconds and then be immediately submitted (pre-transition no less) by a male MMA fighter. That fight was extremely lopsided in 2 distinct ways. 1: The bio-female fighter was 10x more skilled, had better movement, form, and fight tactics. It was like watching a pro boxer fight a drunk. 2: The MTF fighter had a distinct and extreme strength and durability advantage. Watch it again. The MTF fighter was throwing hail-mary haymakers while essentially not even looking. Whenever one connected, the reaction was stark and immediate. The pure strength and power from pre-transition clearly does not disappear. The bio-female fighter hit the MTF fighter relentlessly with almost no effect. The strength and durability advantage was exceedingly clear. The takedown and submission were quite possibly the most embarassing, terrible examples of MMA technique I've ever seen. If the strength levels were at all comparable, that would have ended up with Alana's top control being reversed and her being submitted. Put another way, if both fighters were either bio or MTF, Alana would've been turned into ground beef not even halfway through round 1.
    - MattRix 4y ago
      Again hyperbole with comments like “10x more skilled”. If you had a valid point to make, you wouldn’t need to fill your post with exaggeration. I don’t even think you realize you’re doing it. We both know the Alana has many physical disadvantages compared to a male fighter. I don’t know why you feel the need to ignore that fact.
      - wcarron 4y ago
        > Again hyperbole with comments like “10x more skilled”. That's not hyperbole. That's plainly evident just from watching the fight. Her striking was more precise, her timing was better, her form was better, her head movement was better, footwork and spacing, too. Her tactics were very appropriate for the challenge whilst Alana showed no fight intelligence. Add all that up and I would absolutely say she is exponentially more skilled. 1 exponent, but still, exponential. Alana literally kept ducking into the left hand strikes and throwing blind haymakers. Alana's takedown technique was unfathomably bad. She won because her biological advantages outweighed her lack of skill. Plain and simple.
WalterGR 4y ago
10 points in 14 minutes is an impressive upvote velocity. This must be a popular topic for HNers.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
atom-morgan 4y ago
The opposition to "trans athletes in female sports" is all you should need to know that this is wrong. Nobody opposes trans athletes in male sports for obvious reasons.
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  citation? i had the impression it's trans athletes period that are the contested issue. (accidental double entendre)
  - atom-morgan 4y ago
    The citation is every media story on the subject and the overall mainstream debate.
eutropia 4y ago
This particular issue is tricky. In general, because all nuance gets lost - I would say "sure, I support whatever the trans community wants for sports league rules", because the trans community needs all the support it can get, because as a society we're not uniform in our human rights, etc. But when I think about bio-born males who are trans and are competing against bio-born females (weight-classes or not) - it seems pretty fucking unfair in most athletic events. So, I guess I would propose that we redraw the categories. Instead of "Men's and Women's {SPORT}" we would have "Female and Unlimited {SPORT}".
- creato 4y ago
  > Instead of "Men's and Women's {SPORT}" we would have "Female and Unlimited {SPORT}". I'm pretty sure that's exactly what we have now, women play in men's sports on occasion. Ironically, the names "female" and "unlimited" suggest being a woman is a handicap, which is probably why it was renamed to men's in the first place.
- jfengel 4y ago
  It's not as simple as "bio-born males". Sports federations set rules that trans women need to be taking androgen blockers, and have levels of testosterone below those of some cis women. And by the time they've done that, their advantages are somewhere between slim and none. They usually fall within the ranges of other women -- and the top cis female athletes will always be at the extreme ends of the range anyway. So it's a lot more complicated than just "men showing up at women's events", and surveys like this are heavily influenced by it being presented that way. That presentation has a lot less to do with people worrying about fairness to women in sport, and is mostly about harassing and marginalizing trans people. All trans people. We could have a serious discussion about why women's sports exist at all, rather than just the open class. And that would bring up questions of just what makes women women -- it goes far beyond what's between their legs and even in their endocrine systems. But I don't believe that the laws being passed to "protect female athletics" are anything of the sort. They don't even try to fairly present the current state of knowledge about genetics, hormones, and the results of legitimate scientific tests of the results of medical transition.
bilekas 4y ago
Identifying as a female and competing as one are two separate things though. I doubt there are many if any trying to take advantage, but the fact is, the biology doesn't match up. And by definition athletic sports are physical.. It can be a touchy subject, but when you break it down to basics without needing to step on eggshells of PC it's not that hard. Physical male identifies as a woman, perfectly fine. However those physical traits are physically there forever, regardless of identification. Athletics as a whole has been divided by gender forever in athletic sports, for this very reason. I don't know why it should change now personally.
- droto 4y ago
droto 4y ago

30 points by Victerius 4y ago

sn0w_crash 4y ago

J_cst 4y ago
The fight is impressive. The female born athlete has been impressive. In a sane state of mind the challenge should be seen as unfair IMHO. Thank you for the link.
- sn0w_crash 4y ago
  Mods why was my comment removed? I didn’t say anything remotely controversial. I posted a link to a video of a male MMA fighter beating a female fighter. This is what this topic is about. Why did you censor my comment? The mods on this site are heavily biased and everyone can see it. @Dang
  - happytoexplain 4y ago
    People flagged it - your writing in it is pretty hyperbolic/uncharitable/emotional/antagonistic (regardless of whatever opinion may lie underneath). Also, you say it was not controversial, and yet there is a lengthy comment disagreeing with you, so I'm not sure what you mean. Regardless, being "controversial" shouldn't (ideally) be considered a flaggable offense, as you're implying. Also, jumping so quickly to "I'm being censored" and "the mods are biased" is kind of more of the same attitude. HN tends to self-select for substantive writing (for now).
MattRix 4y ago
Your description of the fight is so hyperbolic. It’s not nearly as lopsided as you imply. I have no doubt there are current women’s MMA athletes who could beat Alana. Also the amount of toxic transphobia in the comments on that video is pretty sickening.
- wcarron 4y ago
  Sorry, but I have to disagree. the MTF fighter is legitimately terrrrrible. They'd get lit up within 10 seconds and then be immediately submitted (pre-transition no less) by a male MMA fighter. That fight was extremely lopsided in 2 distinct ways. 1: The bio-female fighter was 10x more skilled, had better movement, form, and fight tactics. It was like watching a pro boxer fight a drunk. 2: The MTF fighter had a distinct and extreme strength and durability advantage. Watch it again. The MTF fighter was throwing hail-mary haymakers while essentially not even looking. Whenever one connected, the reaction was stark and immediate. The pure strength and power from pre-transition clearly does not disappear. The bio-female fighter hit the MTF fighter relentlessly with almost no effect. The strength and durability advantage was exceedingly clear. The takedown and submission were quite possibly the most embarassing, terrible examples of MMA technique I've ever seen. If the strength levels were at all comparable, that would have ended up with Alana's top control being reversed and her being submitted. Put another way, if both fighters were either bio or MTF, Alana would've been turned into ground beef not even halfway through round 1.
  - MattRix 4y ago
    Again hyperbole with comments like “10x more skilled”. If you had a valid point to make, you wouldn’t need to fill your post with exaggeration. I don’t even think you realize you’re doing it. We both know the Alana has many physical disadvantages compared to a male fighter. I don’t know why you feel the need to ignore that fact.
    - wcarron 4y ago
      > Again hyperbole with comments like “10x more skilled”. That's not hyperbole. That's plainly evident just from watching the fight. Her striking was more precise, her timing was better, her form was better, her head movement was better, footwork and spacing, too. Her tactics were very appropriate for the challenge whilst Alana showed no fight intelligence. Add all that up and I would absolutely say she is exponentially more skilled. 1 exponent, but still, exponential. Alana literally kept ducking into the left hand strikes and throwing blind haymakers. Alana's takedown technique was unfathomably bad. She won because her biological advantages outweighed her lack of skill. Plain and simple.

WalterGR 4y ago

10 points in 14 minutes is an impressive upvote velocity. This must be a popular topic for HNers.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

atom-morgan 4y ago

The opposition to "trans athletes in female sports" is all you should need to know that this is wrong. Nobody opposes trans athletes in male sports for obvious reasons.

jjtheblunt 4y ago
citation? i had the impression it's trans athletes period that are the contested issue. (accidental double entendre)
- atom-morgan 4y ago
  The citation is every media story on the subject and the overall mainstream debate.

eutropia 4y ago

This particular issue is tricky. In general, because all nuance gets lost - I would say "sure, I support whatever the trans community wants for sports league rules", because the trans community needs all the support it can get, because as a society we're not uniform in our human rights, etc. But when I think about bio-born males who are trans and are competing against bio-born females (weight-classes or not) - it seems pretty fucking unfair in most athletic events. So, I guess I would propose that we redraw the categories. Instead of "Men's and Women's {SPORT}" we would have "Female and Unlimited {SPORT}".

creato 4y ago
> Instead of "Men's and Women's {SPORT}" we would have "Female and Unlimited {SPORT}". I'm pretty sure that's exactly what we have now, women play in men's sports on occasion. Ironically, the names "female" and "unlimited" suggest being a woman is a handicap, which is probably why it was renamed to men's in the first place.
jfengel 4y ago
It's not as simple as "bio-born males". Sports federations set rules that trans women need to be taking androgen blockers, and have levels of testosterone below those of some cis women. And by the time they've done that, their advantages are somewhere between slim and none. They usually fall within the ranges of other women -- and the top cis female athletes will always be at the extreme ends of the range anyway. So it's a lot more complicated than just "men showing up at women's events", and surveys like this are heavily influenced by it being presented that way. That presentation has a lot less to do with people worrying about fairness to women in sport, and is mostly about harassing and marginalizing trans people. All trans people. We could have a serious discussion about why women's sports exist at all, rather than just the open class. And that would bring up questions of just what makes women women -- it goes far beyond what's between their legs and even in their endocrine systems. But I don't believe that the laws being passed to "protect female athletics" are anything of the sort. They don't even try to fairly present the current state of knowledge about genetics, hormones, and the results of legitimate scientific tests of the results of medical transition.

bilekas 4y ago

Identifying as a female and competing as one are two separate things though. I doubt there are many if any trying to take advantage, but the fact is, the biology doesn't match up. And by definition athletic sports are physical.. It can be a touchy subject, but when you break it down to basics without needing to step on eggshells of PC it's not that hard. Physical male identifies as a woman, perfectly fine. However those physical traits are physically there forever, regardless of identification. Athletics as a whole has been divided by gender forever in athletic sports, for this very reason. I don't know why it should change now personally.

droto 4y ago

droto 4y ago