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You're literally asking for more death and destruction. Just think of what you're saying. Russia wins this war no matter what and the pointless cheerleading fro

You're literally asking for more death and destruction. Just think of what you're saying. Russia wins this war no matter what and the pointless cheerleading from the media and some politicians has been nothing but disposing of Ukrainian lives for the sole purpose of getting some type of bizarre revenge on Russia who they believe got Trump elected, or something. Sending more and more weapons only prolongs it and adds to the body count. A humanitarian mission to remove those at risk from the areas Russia wants to invade would be a far better response. Sanctioning Russia is fine but shooting ourselves in the foot by refusing to buy their fuel is ridiculous and destroying our economies leading to real people losing their livelihoods here.

yks 4y ago
> Russia wins this war no matter what As they say, citation needed.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  Just look at what's going on right now? They've just about succeeded now in claiming the Eastern territories they want and it won't be long now. Everything has turned the last few weeks since their initial offense was repelled and they regrouped. Why are some people rooting for more and more needless death and destruction?
  - corrral 4y ago
    > Why are some people rooting for more and more needless death and destruction? Maybe ask on a Russian forum?
  - yks 4y ago
    First, letting Putin run over Ukraine is a guaranteed destruction of Ukrainian culture and identity, or at least a setback for several decades or centuries until Russia collapses again. Another generation of poets, writers, citizen sent to mass graves. Fine, you might think that physical safety of a majority outweigh such ephemeral concepts and the minority of cultural elites can be sacrificed to Putin but not everyone thinks that way. Many Ukrainians, for instance, are willing to sacrifice their physical safety for the survival of Ukrainian culture. Second, letting Russia win will not stop further death and destruction when Putin continues his expansion westward, only then with Ukrainian conscripts as a cannon fodder.
tshaddox 4y ago
Are you suggesting that Putin ought to be allowed to invade any country he wants without resistance because resisting would only increase the death count? Or is there something specific about Ukraine?
- nemo44x 4y ago
  No, the situation in Ukraine is so much more nuanced. There's a lot of history there and Ukraine is't an innocent bystander in this situation. It's fair to say Russia has been provoked in many ways and although I'm not sure an invasion is justified, it isn't all together unexpected based on how they've been treated regarding this over the last 10 years or so. The breakdown in diplomacy with Russia is the worst part. The previous administration at least had diplomacy. The current one just pushed them into this.
  - yks 4y ago
    Invasion started in 2014, when diplomacy was okay. Russia kept rotating their knife in Ukrainian back all this time, you can't with a straight face victim blame Ukraine here.
  - juve1996 4y ago
    > The breakdown in diplomacy with Russia is the worst part. The previous administration at least had diplomacy. The current one just pushed them into this. If by diplomacy you mean kowtowing to everything Russia does, I'm not sure that's much better.
    - TMWNN 4y ago
      >If by diplomacy you mean kowtowing to everything Russia does, I'm not sure that's much better. Trump and Stoltenberg argue on camera (<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k>). Who turned out to be right? Who turned out to completely, totally, 100% wrong?
      - nemo44x 4y ago
AzzieElbab 4y ago
I am sure Ukrainians feel very sorry about inconveniencing Europeans but apparently they have decided to fight regardless of whether the West sends them weapons or not. At this point the West can watch them die or help them fight.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  It doesn't really matter now. Russia is about to reclaim the Eastern lands it wanted and then we'll hear about "negotiated cease fire" and the war will be over and a pointless waste of lives will have occurred as well as trillions in economic damages. Russia literally had a 0% chance of losing this thing in the end. Ukraine did well to defend early and Russia certainly mismanaged the strategy. Going at the mainland was stupid and indefensible and the Ukraine fighters should be commended. But it was never the main objective and the truth is, Russia is on the verge of accomplishing their main objective. It's time to stop fighting.
  - AzzieElbab 4y ago
    why do you assume Russia wanted only the Eastern lands? Putin said he wanted all of Ukraine. The invasion started with attempt to take Kyiv. Why level Kharkiv if all you want is Donbas?
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      I think it was strategic to end the war quickly. They knew if they invaded the East it would be a drawn out thing. So they went for the head shot right away and hoped they could pressure a negotiation. But to their credit, Ukraine stood up to it and the Russian execution of their plan was poor. So they've since abandoned that strategy and have now settled for plan-b, which they will win eventually. It's time to stop losing lives and to try diplomacy.
      - AzzieElbab 4y ago
        You think the strategy was to take Kyiv(the cradle and former capital of Kievlyan Russia)and then exchange it for war-torn Donbas? That would be like Israelis exchanging Jerusalem for Gaza
spamizbad 4y ago
Russia could stop the bloodshed today by simply withdrawing their forces from the region. The LNR/DNR forces would surrender (they are reliant on Russia's support) and peace and stability could be achieved rapidly. The power is in their hands. It's important to remember that this war has really been going on since 2014. Eastern rebel forces were starting to crumble until Russia began offering direct military assistance (Not just material but also boots-on-the-ground. Ukraine captured VDV and Spetsnaz POWs and would regularly exchange Russian troops with the DNR/LPR for POW swaps). Edit: One of the big lessons Europe learned during the first half of the 20th century is that nationalist/ethnic conquests over land and border disputes makes everyone worse-off (World War I), and such acts should be powerfully deterred - through force, because capitulation doesn't work (World War II). It seems people are forgetting these lessons.
- pydry 4y ago
  They withdraw now and a year later theres a NATO base in Mariupol. Donbas is the location from which the Nazis launched the attack on the USSR which almost lost them WW2. Its strategic significance cant be understated. Finland and Sweden are not as important.
  - spamizbad 4y ago
    There's already NATO bases in the Barents Sea (and Turkey via the Black Sea) in addition along their land borders via the baltic states (minus Belarus). Their actions have also pushed Finland and Sweden into the arms of NATO. The thing about the Cuban missile crisis is that Kennedy was able to get Russian missiles AWAY from the United States. Russia's actions are getting hardware placed closer. And why is that? Probably because Russia will tolerate it in exchange for territorial expansion. Even after the 2014 invasion of Crimea there was open talk about how NATO was obsolete and a waste of money and effort. Russia could've probably eliminated any NATO threat without firing a single shot. It was already seen as a relic of the cold war. Instead, Russia's actions have given a renewed justification for NATO's existence.
    - pydry 4y ago
mourner 4y ago
"Hitler wins this war no matter what, just let him kill all the Jews and enslave non-Aryans so that we could avoid needless deaths and suffering" — does that sound right to you? This is exactly how this ignorant nonsense sounds to a Ukrainian. This is genocide. Not resisting means millions killed and tens of millions brutally oppressed, a whole nation and its culture erased from existence, and an invitation for further imperialistic wars and atrocities, because evil unpunished only leads to more evil on a larger scale.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  Yeah, I don't think they are similar at all. This current situation is way more nuanced. This isn't Hitler blitzing into France. This is not genocide, you're exaggerating here. Honestly, if anything the Russian culture of the Eastern regions Russia is about to take was being wiped out. That was the actual genocide. It's why there are so many Russian supporting people there. When Russia came into Kiev I agree, it was a step too far and the Ukrainian's needed to fight. But now Russia is only attempting their main mission of taking Donbas, etc. It's time to cease fire and negotiate and stop the pointless death at this point.
  - mourner 4y ago
    At this point you're just parroting Russian propaganda without any clue of what you're talking about, so I don't think there's any point in further discussion.
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      I don't think so. I don't have a horse in this race and have read many sources on this conflict and it sort of results in a very grey picture here that isn't anything like what some popular news stations want to make it out to be. I think there's a lot of nuance here and isn't so black and white.

yks 4y ago

> Russia wins this war no matter what As they say, citation needed.

nemo44x 4y ago
Just look at what's going on right now? They've just about succeeded now in claiming the Eastern territories they want and it won't be long now. Everything has turned the last few weeks since their initial offense was repelled and they regrouped. Why are some people rooting for more and more needless death and destruction?
- corrral 4y ago
  > Why are some people rooting for more and more needless death and destruction? Maybe ask on a Russian forum?
- yks 4y ago
  First, letting Putin run over Ukraine is a guaranteed destruction of Ukrainian culture and identity, or at least a setback for several decades or centuries until Russia collapses again. Another generation of poets, writers, citizen sent to mass graves. Fine, you might think that physical safety of a majority outweigh such ephemeral concepts and the minority of cultural elites can be sacrificed to Putin but not everyone thinks that way. Many Ukrainians, for instance, are willing to sacrifice their physical safety for the survival of Ukrainian culture. Second, letting Russia win will not stop further death and destruction when Putin continues his expansion westward, only then with Ukrainian conscripts as a cannon fodder.

tshaddox 4y ago

Are you suggesting that Putin ought to be allowed to invade any country he wants without resistance because resisting would only increase the death count? Or is there something specific about Ukraine?

nemo44x 4y ago
No, the situation in Ukraine is so much more nuanced. There's a lot of history there and Ukraine is't an innocent bystander in this situation. It's fair to say Russia has been provoked in many ways and although I'm not sure an invasion is justified, it isn't all together unexpected based on how they've been treated regarding this over the last 10 years or so. The breakdown in diplomacy with Russia is the worst part. The previous administration at least had diplomacy. The current one just pushed them into this.
- yks 4y ago
  Invasion started in 2014, when diplomacy was okay. Russia kept rotating their knife in Ukrainian back all this time, you can't with a straight face victim blame Ukraine here.
- juve1996 4y ago
  > The breakdown in diplomacy with Russia is the worst part. The previous administration at least had diplomacy. The current one just pushed them into this. If by diplomacy you mean kowtowing to everything Russia does, I'm not sure that's much better.
  - TMWNN 4y ago
    >If by diplomacy you mean kowtowing to everything Russia does, I'm not sure that's much better. Trump and Stoltenberg argue on camera (<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpwkdmwui3k>). Who turned out to be right? Who turned out to completely, totally, 100% wrong?
    - nemo44x 4y ago

AzzieElbab 4y ago

I am sure Ukrainians feel very sorry about inconveniencing Europeans but apparently they have decided to fight regardless of whether the West sends them weapons or not. At this point the West can watch them die or help them fight.

nemo44x 4y ago
It doesn't really matter now. Russia is about to reclaim the Eastern lands it wanted and then we'll hear about "negotiated cease fire" and the war will be over and a pointless waste of lives will have occurred as well as trillions in economic damages. Russia literally had a 0% chance of losing this thing in the end. Ukraine did well to defend early and Russia certainly mismanaged the strategy. Going at the mainland was stupid and indefensible and the Ukraine fighters should be commended. But it was never the main objective and the truth is, Russia is on the verge of accomplishing their main objective. It's time to stop fighting.
- AzzieElbab 4y ago
  why do you assume Russia wanted only the Eastern lands? Putin said he wanted all of Ukraine. The invasion started with attempt to take Kyiv. Why level Kharkiv if all you want is Donbas?
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    I think it was strategic to end the war quickly. They knew if they invaded the East it would be a drawn out thing. So they went for the head shot right away and hoped they could pressure a negotiation. But to their credit, Ukraine stood up to it and the Russian execution of their plan was poor. So they've since abandoned that strategy and have now settled for plan-b, which they will win eventually. It's time to stop losing lives and to try diplomacy.
    - AzzieElbab 4y ago
      You think the strategy was to take Kyiv(the cradle and former capital of Kievlyan Russia)and then exchange it for war-torn Donbas? That would be like Israelis exchanging Jerusalem for Gaza

spamizbad 4y ago

Russia could stop the bloodshed today by simply withdrawing their forces from the region. The LNR/DNR forces would surrender (they are reliant on Russia's support) and peace and stability could be achieved rapidly. The power is in their hands. It's important to remember that this war has really been going on since 2014. Eastern rebel forces were starting to crumble until Russia began offering direct military assistance (Not just material but also boots-on-the-ground. Ukraine captured VDV and Spetsnaz POWs and would regularly exchange Russian troops with the DNR/LPR for POW swaps). Edit: One of the big lessons Europe learned during the first half of the 20th century is that nationalist/ethnic conquests over land and border disputes makes everyone worse-off (World War I), and such acts should be powerfully deterred - through force, because capitulation doesn't work (World War II). It seems people are forgetting these lessons.

pydry 4y ago
They withdraw now and a year later theres a NATO base in Mariupol. Donbas is the location from which the Nazis launched the attack on the USSR which almost lost them WW2. Its strategic significance cant be understated. Finland and Sweden are not as important.
- spamizbad 4y ago
  There's already NATO bases in the Barents Sea (and Turkey via the Black Sea) in addition along their land borders via the baltic states (minus Belarus). Their actions have also pushed Finland and Sweden into the arms of NATO. The thing about the Cuban missile crisis is that Kennedy was able to get Russian missiles AWAY from the United States. Russia's actions are getting hardware placed closer. And why is that? Probably because Russia will tolerate it in exchange for territorial expansion. Even after the 2014 invasion of Crimea there was open talk about how NATO was obsolete and a waste of money and effort. Russia could've probably eliminated any NATO threat without firing a single shot. It was already seen as a relic of the cold war. Instead, Russia's actions have given a renewed justification for NATO's existence.
  - pydry 4y ago

mourner 4y ago

"Hitler wins this war no matter what, just let him kill all the Jews and enslave non-Aryans so that we could avoid needless deaths and suffering" — does that sound right to you? This is exactly how this ignorant nonsense sounds to a Ukrainian. This is genocide. Not resisting means millions killed and tens of millions brutally oppressed, a whole nation and its culture erased from existence, and an invitation for further imperialistic wars and atrocities, because evil unpunished only leads to more evil on a larger scale.

nemo44x 4y ago
Yeah, I don't think they are similar at all. This current situation is way more nuanced. This isn't Hitler blitzing into France. This is not genocide, you're exaggerating here. Honestly, if anything the Russian culture of the Eastern regions Russia is about to take was being wiped out. That was the actual genocide. It's why there are so many Russian supporting people there. When Russia came into Kiev I agree, it was a step too far and the Ukrainian's needed to fight. But now Russia is only attempting their main mission of taking Donbas, etc. It's time to cease fire and negotiate and stop the pointless death at this point.
- mourner 4y ago
  At this point you're just parroting Russian propaganda without any clue of what you're talking about, so I don't think there's any point in further discussion.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    I don't think so. I don't have a horse in this race and have read many sources on this conflict and it sort of results in a very grey picture here that isn't anything like what some popular news stations want to make it out to be. I think there's a lot of nuance here and isn't so black and white.