9 ms·

The West could've ended this war by now if they just went all in on sending howitzers, MLRS and other heavy equipment into Ukraine but they keep slow dripping i

• chinathrow 4y ago
  I really don't get it - the west must a) either know more about Russia and its plans than the public or b) are somewhat complicit in gaining from a long war.
  • gretch 4y ago
    The 2 aren't mutually exclusive but anyone who doesn't believe in A is pretty naive. It's saying that we, keyboard warriors on a programming forum, are just as knowledgeable as e.g. Biden who has the full briefing and resources of the CIA
  • JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > west must a) either know more about Russia and its plans than the public or b) are somewhat complicit in gaining from a long war. Or didn't know what was going on until well after the war was underway. U.S. tactical intelligence has no match on earth. American strategic intelligence is almost predictably garbage. From Iraq to Kabul to Kyiv, we've consistently called the shots wrong.
    • cpursley 4y ago
      Many would argue that US tactical intelligence is overrated, as well. When's the last time the US fought against a near-peer?
      • JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > When's the last time the US fought against a near-peer? When's the last time any major power fought a near peer? I would have said we're getting solid evidence of American intelligence supremacy out of Ukraine. But given the incompetence of the Russian military it would be embarrassing to put them in the same league as China.
        • cpursley 4y ago
          The Russian military is only incompetent on American social media. Despite the memes and all the projection going around, they're running a master class in modern combined arms maneuver warfare. Their territorial gains and low losses relative to Ukraine speak for themselves; the Donbas is weeks, perhaps days, from being consolidated.
          • JumpCrisscross 4y ago
            > they're running a master class in modern combined arms maneuver warfare Ah. Got it.
  • hinkley 4y ago
    If you consider that the US has been 'at war' with Russia since 1945, then the conflict in the Ukraine is one battle, not a war, and winning battles but losing the war is how the USSR disintegrated in the first place. More of that was luck than the State Dept will ever admit, but here we are, and I'll be damned if I know where we are 'going'. There's a tendency for armchair commentators to imagine an opponent 'disappearing' once beaten. If you can make 6.6 million square miles of country disappear, then we should all be kneeling before you and calling you Zod.
• colordrops 4y ago
  The US is interested in a protracted war in Ukraine to both make money for weapons and other supplies manufacturers, and to drain the Russian economy. The Ukraine war was precipitated by years of US machinations, despite media characterizations to the contrary.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • sha256sum 4y ago
    It's important to note the money drip from Afghanistan has been cut off, with manufacturers looking for more ways to drain tax money away from domestic projects and into the war machine, a status quo since at least Vietnam.
    • LewisVerstappen 4y ago
      It is literally the exact opposite. Escalating the war in Ukraine by going "all in on sending howitzers, MLRS and other heavy equipment" is exactly what the defense companies want. It's genuinely amazing to see the mental gymnastics here to come to the conclusion that buying fewer weapons is exactly what the defense contractors are lobbying for.
      • deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      • colordrops 4y ago
        They have approved 40 billion. Is it really that hard to imagine that a protracted war would benefit defense contractors. Do you think these multi billion dollar war machine only thinks in simplistic first order effects. It requires no mental gymnastics whatsoever. Actually the counter argument is where you need to twist yourself to believe otherwise.
      • sha256sum 4y ago
        Eh, re-read the comment--I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying they want that status quo, without war they don't sell weapons. But interestingly enough someone did attempt those same gymnastics.
• bgorman 4y ago
  The Biden administration's goal isn't to stop the war, it is to reset geopolitics by creating regime change in Russia. For this to happen the Ukraine conflict needs to be drawn out as long as possible, perhaps even with an insurgency in southern/eastern Ukraine.
  • yks 4y ago
    Even if true, it's just not smart cause the Biden administration will be voted out due to consequences of the drawn out conflict.
  • mywittyname 4y ago
    Biden isn't the only person shaping the war though. Western Europe pretty clearly wants this conflict to end, and has pushed Ukraine to accept Russian concessions. It's reasonable for Americans to want to drag this conflict out, as they are more insulated from the direct effects of the war, and a pro-American Russia would bring a lot of benefits. But it is clearly having a destabilizing effect on the rest of the world and this may spill over into western europe as well.
• gretch 4y ago
  Yeah and Russia could have ended the war by now too by simply launching their nukes. I think it's weird you don't think anyone involved in the problem has thought of your proposed solution, or that you don't think there's any potential negative effects from antagonizing an unhinged despot with his finger on the nuke.
  • varjag 4y ago
    Ah the classic "don't rattle Putin or nuclear war" defense.
    • LewisVerstappen 4y ago
      What kind of moronic dismissal is that? Avoiding nuclear war should be our #1 priority. "Oh those stupid idiots are scared of nuclear war"
      • gambiting 4y ago
        I do believe that it's not "at all cost" though. Otherwise a nuclear power could do literally anything and you wouldn't be able to stop them "because nukes". If Putin started rolling tanks into Poland saying "don't stop me or I'll fire nukes" that would be the time to call his bluff, even if the consequences of getting this wrong are dire. The line has to be somewhere - right now it's the border of NATO member countries.
        • vogre 4y ago
          You forget there are two red lines and vague space between them. For NATO the borders of its members are red line. For Putin the red line is borders of Russia, that include Crimea and L/DPR for now. There is no way Putin leaves Crimea and nukes are not send to the Washington.
          • varjag 4y ago
            Ever wondered how Russia became the largest country out there? The borders of Russia end where Russia gets a bloody snot.
• delecti 4y ago
  They don't much care if Ukraine wins, they want Russia to lose as much as possible. If Ukraine wins too fast or effectively, there's a risk of Russia getting desperate and using nukes, but also there's a chance Russia will pull back before taking as many military losses as possible through a protracted conflict.
• me551ah 4y ago
  The west could have ended the war by holding talks between Biden and Putin too.
  • colinmhayes 4y ago
    This just isn't true. Putin never signalled a willingness to hold good faith peace talks. Quite the contrary, he has continuously signalled how important he believes Ukraine is to his legacy. Nothing short of his death would have stopped this.
• nemo44x 4y ago
  You're literally asking for more death and destruction. Just think of what you're saying. Russia wins this war no matter what and the pointless cheerleading from the media and some politicians has been nothing but disposing of Ukrainian lives for the sole purpose of getting some type of bizarre revenge on Russia who they believe got Trump elected, or something. Sending more and more weapons only prolongs it and adds to the body count. A humanitarian mission to remove those at risk from the areas Russia wants to invade would be a far better response. Sanctioning Russia is fine but shooting ourselves in the foot by refusing to buy their fuel is ridiculous and destroying our economies leading to real people losing their livelihoods here.
  • yks 4y ago
    > Russia wins this war no matter what As they say, citation needed.
    • nemo44x 4y ago
      Just look at what's going on right now? They've just about succeeded now in claiming the Eastern territories they want and it won't be long now. Everything has turned the last few weeks since their initial offense was repelled and they regrouped. Why are some people rooting for more and more needless death and destruction?
      • corrral 4y ago
        > Why are some people rooting for more and more needless death and destruction? Maybe ask on a Russian forum?
      • yks 4y ago
        First, letting Putin run over Ukraine is a guaranteed destruction of Ukrainian culture and identity, or at least a setback for several decades or centuries until Russia collapses again. Another generation of poets, writers, citizen sent to mass graves. Fine, you might think that physical safety of a majority outweigh such ephemeral concepts and the minority of cultural elites can be sacrificed to Putin but not everyone thinks that way. Many Ukrainians, for instance, are willing to sacrifice their physical safety for the survival of Ukrainian culture. Second, letting Russia win will not stop further death and destruction when Putin continues his expansion westward, only then with Ukrainian conscripts as a cannon fodder.
• corrral 4y ago
  I think the initial reluctance was because they didn't want Russia to capture a whole bunch of intact, powerful, advanced weapon systems if Ukraine capitulated fast, plus not being sure how Russia would react to extensive Western involvement. Both don't seem to be problems, now, but they easily could have been.
• realcertify 4y ago
  Total number of howitzers, MLRS etc across all NATO countries combined is in the same range as what Russia posesses. So that is not going to end the war, just more people will die. This is not a soccer game.
• 7speter 4y ago
  Upthread there was talk of the US glowing at night. This is how the US ends up glowing at night.
• xkcd1963 4y ago
  This is a dangerous view. Might have worked for the past when we didn't have nuclear weapons.
  • yks 4y ago
    Nuclear powers lost wars before, nuclear powers lost proxy wars before, and yet we are not living in the Fallout world.