5 ms·

Making fun of/uttering/referencing prejudices targeting women == Sexist. Using prejudices targeting men == Witty and Feminist. I am a man. I am not a rapist l

Making fun of/uttering/referencing prejudices targeting women == Sexist. Using prejudices targeting men == Witty and Feminist. I am a man. I am not a rapist looking for victim. I am not a bumbling buffoon who can't change a light bulb without falling off a ladder. I do not beat children and women. I work hard, I go and do risky and unpleasant shit (digging through human excrement to unclog the sewage, etc.) so the rest of my family doesn't have to. I also make more than I spend and generally try to make myself as useful as possible. I also like kids, though I don't have any of my own yet, I like to hang out with other peoples kids. And I am sick to tears of my gender being portrayed as monsters preying for our next victim.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
dgabriel 15y ago
What on earth are you talking about? At which technical conference were such accusations or jokes about men? Where in the technical community are men characterized as buffoons or monsters to general feminist approval?
- _debug_ 15y ago
  The parent did not say that the jokes about men were at technical conferences. I believe he was referring to all domains, not just programming / technical conferences.
  - dgabriel 15y ago
    This is hacker news, so I would expect we would target technical arenas. I'm not going to argue the other stuff, because it is completely off-topic, derails the conversation, and is generally uninteresting to other readers. I have also found that internet arguments about men v. women get ugly and out of control very quickly.
- DuncanIdaho 15y ago
  >One in five (18 percent) of men have been victims of domestic violence by a wife or female partner as opposed to 13 percent of women by a man. >One in nine women admit to having used physical aggression against a husband or male partner (compared to one in ten men) >14 percent of men say that they have been slapped by a partner (compared to 9 percent of women) >11 percent of men have had a partner threaten to throw something heavy at them (compared to 8 percent of women) >Only 4 percent of women explained that their behavior (either verbal or physical) was because of drink or drugs (compared to ten percent of men) >Nearly half (47 percent) of women say that their behaviour (physical or verbal aggression or verbal reasoning) was because "it was the only way I could get through to him" >Working class men (20 percent) are more likely to have been subjected to physical agression by a wife or female partner than upper or middle class men (15 percent) >Here and Now's survey reveals that fifteen percent (6.3 million people) of the population say that they have been subjected to physical agression by a husband/wife or hetrosexual partner. >MORI interviewed a representitive quota sample of 1,978 adults in Great Britain. 1,865 of whom had ever been in a personal relationship with the opposite sex. >Field work was conducted from 17-21 November 1994 in 150 constituencies. All interviews were conducted face to face in home employing a self completion technique. Data have been weighted to the known profile of the British population. [1]: http://www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/descrim.htm http://www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/descrim.htm Merely mentioning that in contemporary times, sexism towards men may be more prevalent as vice versa gets one booed off the stage. And your question is loaded. There are plenty of sexist jokes going around on medical conferences. Mere notion that women, do not make sexist jokes against men, I find offensive. When in reality, a man complaining about it would be seen as a pussy (sexism?). In the country where I live it is practically impossible to get stewardship of your kid if you are a man and mother also wants it. Hell I know cases where mother doesn't want the kid, but takes him just to spite the father. There are loads of evidence that modern civilization is doing something very wrong with its men (especially young men). Lack of role models, bias towards women in affirmative action, bias against men in legislative and enforcement action is resulting in a dramatic shift of gender equality. And in a bad way. I know dozens of attractive, educated, successful women who can't get a proper mate. Its a sellers market out there for ambitious, educated, refined man - lets say a classic gentleman.
  - 15y ago
orofino 15y ago
I certainly understand how frustrated you are with the fact that it seems OK to bash men, however I think you're missing the point in this case. Would it be fair to say that you'd prefer not to be portrayed as a "bumbling buffoon"? Just because some see it as an acceptable practice to portray men as idiots, doesn't give men the right stereotypes to other groups. The comment in this case was unacceptable, the response, in my opinion, is warranted. It is far too common and accepted that a comment like this about women is OK. How men are stereotyped has no bearing on whether it is right or wrong.
- DuncanIdaho 15y ago
  Honestly, I don't mind. I like people saying whatever they want to say. If they say stupid shit - then that reflects on them and only on them. Ok, so the guy doing the presentation and uttering a cleanly well thought out joke is whatever he is. Also Shifra is whatever she is (have you read the thread?). E.g.: I actually got up and made him apologize for his stupid and offensive joke. On the way out, one woman thanked me and one man told me I should "relax." (I told him he should shut up.) Statement like that also reflects poorly on the person saying it. I see it as an abuse of power: I am a woman and since I am a woman I will now make you bow down to my might - else I might get all lawyered up on you. Consider this scenario: It's a JAVA conference and the guy titles his presentation: Explain it to COBOL programmer. And there is a COBOL programmer in the crowd (alog with the rest of the 1% of COBOL programmers) who gets so upset, that he makes a guy apologize for it. Was the statement offensive? Yes. Was making a fuss worth it? Seriously doubt it. Like I said, people speak for themselves. Making offensive jokes is highly inappropriate - in any scenario. I sincerely hope that all the people who are so concerned about morals, do so without discrimination.
impendia 15y ago
I agree and sympathize -- insofar as you accept that you've taken nothing away from the original posting. Sexism cuts in both directions. IMHO, M-to-F sexism is much more prevalent, more damaging (for example to women's career prospects), and a more serious issue, but as you complain, F-to-M sexism is real, is (in some circles) more widely socially acceptable, and is sort of insidious. I admire it when men or women stand up to either sort of sexism. I especially admire this woman's stand. She stood up alone, in a room full of men who had laughed, and calmly demanded to be treated with respect. I submit that she's a role model for anyone who faces discrimination of any type and any severity.
- DuncanIdaho 15y ago
  When you face real and significant discrimination you don't go and try to make a "stand" in a room full of perpetrators.
  - impendia 15y ago
    This woman did!
inflatablenerd 15y ago
I don't understand how your comment is even remotely related to this post.
rayiner 15y ago
There are two parts to this phenomenon. 1) when have you actually encountered sexism as a man outside some women's club meeting? As a man myself, I only get portrayed as a rapist in the minds of male redditors. 2) It's generally considered less offensive to make fun of the people in charge, for obvious reasons. By and large, men still run the country. Politicians, bankers, and judges are all overwhelmingly male. Make fun of a man in a commercial for being stupid? It's funny because the CEO of the advertising is almost certainly a man. Make fun of a woman for being stupid? It's less funny because as recently as when our parents were growing up we actually did make such commercials, except we meant it and actively excluded women from the workforce. We're not far enough removed from "math is hard" Barbie dolls to find humor in poking fun at the intelligence of women. Too soon.
- lotharbot 15y ago
  I'm a stay-at-home dad living in a rather patriarchal area (rural Utah). Women look at me funny when I take my kid to the park or the grocery store. I've heard comments about my inability to change a diaper, and they were serious.
- xiaoma 15y ago
  >"1) when have you actually encountered sexism as a man outside some women's club meeting? " I've done work at various charities, lunch lines for the homeless, etc... What I've seen in the US is many, many shelters and other charities that will accept women and families but not single men, and I've never even seen one that refuses single women while accepting single men. This is despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of the homeless in the country are men. Whether a person goes in engineering or marketing isn't nearly as important as whether or not a person has food and shelter. Disappointingly, I regularly see high traffic blog postings and news articles about the sex imbalances in CS, and rarely see any concern about those in our charities. I can't help but suspect that if a city somehow did have charities that discriminated in the opposite direction that it would be headline news.
mithaler 15y ago
Y'know, no one here is saying that you shouldn't receive the same accolades as Shifra for stopping a talk in the middle and calling out the speaker for making a sexist joke about men. When that happens, post about it. But until then, this comment does nothing but derail the conversation.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

dgabriel 15y ago

What on earth are you talking about? At which technical conference were such accusations or jokes about men? Where in the technical community are men characterized as buffoons or monsters to general feminist approval?

_debug_ 15y ago
The parent did not say that the jokes about men were at technical conferences. I believe he was referring to all domains, not just programming / technical conferences.
- dgabriel 15y ago
  This is hacker news, so I would expect we would target technical arenas. I'm not going to argue the other stuff, because it is completely off-topic, derails the conversation, and is generally uninteresting to other readers. I have also found that internet arguments about men v. women get ugly and out of control very quickly.
DuncanIdaho 15y ago
>One in five (18 percent) of men have been victims of domestic violence by a wife or female partner as opposed to 13 percent of women by a man. >One in nine women admit to having used physical aggression against a husband or male partner (compared to one in ten men) >14 percent of men say that they have been slapped by a partner (compared to 9 percent of women) >11 percent of men have had a partner threaten to throw something heavy at them (compared to 8 percent of women) >Only 4 percent of women explained that their behavior (either verbal or physical) was because of drink or drugs (compared to ten percent of men) >Nearly half (47 percent) of women say that their behaviour (physical or verbal aggression or verbal reasoning) was because "it was the only way I could get through to him" >Working class men (20 percent) are more likely to have been subjected to physical agression by a wife or female partner than upper or middle class men (15 percent) >Here and Now's survey reveals that fifteen percent (6.3 million people) of the population say that they have been subjected to physical agression by a husband/wife or hetrosexual partner. >MORI interviewed a representitive quota sample of 1,978 adults in Great Britain. 1,865 of whom had ever been in a personal relationship with the opposite sex. >Field work was conducted from 17-21 November 1994 in 150 constituencies. All interviews were conducted face to face in home employing a self completion technique. Data have been weighted to the known profile of the British population. [1]: http://www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/descrim.htm http://www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/descrim.htm Merely mentioning that in contemporary times, sexism towards men may be more prevalent as vice versa gets one booed off the stage. And your question is loaded. There are plenty of sexist jokes going around on medical conferences. Mere notion that women, do not make sexist jokes against men, I find offensive. When in reality, a man complaining about it would be seen as a pussy (sexism?). In the country where I live it is practically impossible to get stewardship of your kid if you are a man and mother also wants it. Hell I know cases where mother doesn't want the kid, but takes him just to spite the father. There are loads of evidence that modern civilization is doing something very wrong with its men (especially young men). Lack of role models, bias towards women in affirmative action, bias against men in legislative and enforcement action is resulting in a dramatic shift of gender equality. And in a bad way. I know dozens of attractive, educated, successful women who can't get a proper mate. Its a sellers market out there for ambitious, educated, refined man - lets say a classic gentleman.
- 15y ago

orofino 15y ago

I certainly understand how frustrated you are with the fact that it seems OK to bash men, however I think you're missing the point in this case. Would it be fair to say that you'd prefer not to be portrayed as a "bumbling buffoon"? Just because some see it as an acceptable practice to portray men as idiots, doesn't give men the right stereotypes to other groups. The comment in this case was unacceptable, the response, in my opinion, is warranted. It is far too common and accepted that a comment like this about women is OK. How men are stereotyped has no bearing on whether it is right or wrong.

DuncanIdaho 15y ago
Honestly, I don't mind. I like people saying whatever they want to say. If they say stupid shit - then that reflects on them and only on them. Ok, so the guy doing the presentation and uttering a cleanly well thought out joke is whatever he is. Also Shifra is whatever she is (have you read the thread?). E.g.: I actually got up and made him apologize for his stupid and offensive joke. On the way out, one woman thanked me and one man told me I should "relax." (I told him he should shut up.) Statement like that also reflects poorly on the person saying it. I see it as an abuse of power: I am a woman and since I am a woman I will now make you bow down to my might - else I might get all lawyered up on you. Consider this scenario: It's a JAVA conference and the guy titles his presentation: Explain it to COBOL programmer. And there is a COBOL programmer in the crowd (alog with the rest of the 1% of COBOL programmers) who gets so upset, that he makes a guy apologize for it. Was the statement offensive? Yes. Was making a fuss worth it? Seriously doubt it. Like I said, people speak for themselves. Making offensive jokes is highly inappropriate - in any scenario. I sincerely hope that all the people who are so concerned about morals, do so without discrimination.

impendia 15y ago

I agree and sympathize -- insofar as you accept that you've taken nothing away from the original posting. Sexism cuts in both directions. IMHO, M-to-F sexism is much more prevalent, more damaging (for example to women's career prospects), and a more serious issue, but as you complain, F-to-M sexism is real, is (in some circles) more widely socially acceptable, and is sort of insidious. I admire it when men or women stand up to either sort of sexism. I especially admire this woman's stand. She stood up alone, in a room full of men who had laughed, and calmly demanded to be treated with respect. I submit that she's a role model for anyone who faces discrimination of any type and any severity.

DuncanIdaho 15y ago
When you face real and significant discrimination you don't go and try to make a "stand" in a room full of perpetrators.
- impendia 15y ago
  This woman did!

inflatablenerd 15y ago

I don't understand how your comment is even remotely related to this post.

rayiner 15y ago

There are two parts to this phenomenon. 1) when have you actually encountered sexism as a man outside some women's club meeting? As a man myself, I only get portrayed as a rapist in the minds of male redditors. 2) It's generally considered less offensive to make fun of the people in charge, for obvious reasons. By and large, men still run the country. Politicians, bankers, and judges are all overwhelmingly male. Make fun of a man in a commercial for being stupid? It's funny because the CEO of the advertising is almost certainly a man. Make fun of a woman for being stupid? It's less funny because as recently as when our parents were growing up we actually did make such commercials, except we meant it and actively excluded women from the workforce. We're not far enough removed from "math is hard" Barbie dolls to find humor in poking fun at the intelligence of women. Too soon.

lotharbot 15y ago
I'm a stay-at-home dad living in a rather patriarchal area (rural Utah). Women look at me funny when I take my kid to the park or the grocery store. I've heard comments about my inability to change a diaper, and they were serious.
xiaoma 15y ago
>"1) when have you actually encountered sexism as a man outside some women's club meeting? " I've done work at various charities, lunch lines for the homeless, etc... What I've seen in the US is many, many shelters and other charities that will accept women and families but not single men, and I've never even seen one that refuses single women while accepting single men. This is despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of the homeless in the country are men. Whether a person goes in engineering or marketing isn't nearly as important as whether or not a person has food and shelter. Disappointingly, I regularly see high traffic blog postings and news articles about the sex imbalances in CS, and rarely see any concern about those in our charities. I can't help but suspect that if a city somehow did have charities that discriminated in the opposite direction that it would be headline news.

mithaler 15y ago

Y'know, no one here is saying that you shouldn't receive the same accolades as Shifra for stopping a talk in the middle and calling out the speaker for making a sexist joke about men. When that happens, post about it. But until then, this comment does nothing but derail the conversation.