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> the people in charge of the Mac are now people who _grew up with it_, who love it, and who have that same nostalgia as (some) of us outside Apple. So then ho

> the people in charge of the Mac are now people who _grew up with it_, who love it, and who have that same nostalgia as (some) of us outside Apple. So then how does one explain the unending UI regressions with every single major update? This whole system preferences thing for example? The terrible, terrible toolbars combined with window titles? The borderless buttons (with borders being an accessibility feature)? The utter disregard of the pixel grid? Everything else slowly becoming ever more un-desktop?

selectodude 4y ago
> This whole system preferences thing for example Do you remember what the battery icon in System Preferences looked like in the first beta of Mac OS 12? It's a beta. Give it some time. It's not out yet.
- grishka 4y ago
  I'm very doubtful that by the time it reaches release, they'll bring back the icon grid and the sensible layouts (instead of those stupid iOS-like lists) in the panes themselves.
  - danaris 4y ago
    Frankly, the icon grid was arranged somewhat arbitrarily to begin with. I'd be quite happy to have a largely-alphabetical list, making it much easier to actually find the specific preference pane I'm looking for.
    - grishka 4y ago
      There used to be labeled categories that made sense. Then they removed the labels, and then they merged some of the categories.
      - dividedbyzero 4y ago
        I've not tried out Ventura myself yet, but from the footage I've seen, the new settings app seems like an upgrade to me. I've never really found my way around the icon grid, none of the iterations since Leopard worked well for me (and I've probably used all of them), so good riddance, happy to see them they try something new. Those lists may break some people's muscle memory, but I'm way faster skimming through a list than finding things in a more or less arbitrary 2d layout. And besides, it's looks pretty similar to iOS, and if that's executed well, then I should be able to share muscle memory between iOS and macOS, like with Control Center (which is neat).
        dmitriid 4y ago
        The new settings forget that desktop OSes are desktop OSes and have a rich library of controls that have interaction modes distinct from touch. See this: https://twitter.com/siracusa/status/1534261202167152649 https://twitter.com/siracusa/status/1534261202167152649 Instead of distinct readable controls with clear interactions it's a sea of gray upon gray upon gray. It breaks Apple's own HIGs which says not to (over)use switches, and use checkboxes instead. The drop downs no longer look like they can be interacted with. Where you'd have settings that can easily fit on a single pane in multicolumn view, you now have lists upon lists upon lists that are entirely alien to the Mac OS https://twitter.com/oskargroth/status/1534133558817742848 https://twitter.com/oskargroth/status/1534133558817742848 Interface consistency is a bullshit goal: https://twitter.com/MarioGuzman/status/1534585939971801088 https://twitter.com/MarioGuzman/status/1534585939971801088
    - pram 4y ago
      You can make the current preferences panel alphabetical.
    - NaOH 4y ago
      I'm still running OS X (10.11, El Capitan), but System Preferences under that OS had a View menu option Organize Alphabetically. That was present in many (all?) versions of OS X. I don't know if/when that may have been removed.
      - OberstKrueger 4y ago
        It's still there on Monterey, so any removal or altering of functionality will be part of the redesign in Ventura.
      - danaris 4y ago
        Well I'll be darned. I never noticed that. Thanks!
  - zitterbewegung 4y ago
    Every time I would open system preferences I would just use the search bar to open what I was looking for. I think they should have just either grouped the icons better or let you choose. Right now the current layout doesn’t fit unless you make it bigger which is weird on my XDR when I can just make it longer …
  - derefr 4y ago
    What do you mean, iOS-like? The new System Preferences has a very clear precedent in macOS: https://www.versionmuseum.com/images/operating-systems/classic-mac-os/classic-mac-os%5E1987%5Esystem-4-control-panel.jpg https://www.versionmuseum.com/images/operating-systems/class...
    - grishka 4y ago
      The new preference panes themselves are very iOS-like, and that's unprecedented.
      - andrekandre 4y ago
        i reminds more of gnome tbh post big-sur, at least dark-theme, the overall ui looks very much like gnome in many ways...
        grishka 4y ago
        And modern Gnome is also terrible because they insist on supporting touchscreens as first-class input devices at the expense of sanely sized controls for the remaining 95% of users.
        andrekandre 4y ago
        yea, i suppose that is the common theme between the two... at least it would explain a lot...
        grishka 4y ago
        Gnome is at least capable of running on devices that have touchscreens. There aren't many of these, and many people who do have a touchscreen on their laptop don't use it, but at least it's a somewhat defensible position. Apple, on the other hand, still maintains two separate platforms for touch and non-touch input. There isn't a single Mac with a touchscreen and there probably won't be any in the foreseeable future. This design thus makes absolutely zero sense in macOS.
marcellus23 4y ago
> So then how does one explain the unending UI regressions with every single major update? That's easy: not everyone agrees they're regressions.
- grishka 4y ago
  They clearly are regressions because they confuse many people and make a worse use of the same screen area. Also what are the problems being solved by these redesigns and rearrangements? What was solved by going flat in 10.9 -> 10.10? What was solved by going even flatter, and using the dreaded SF Symbols icons everywhere, in 10.15 -> 11.0? It's a done product — it's been one for quite a while. Could they just stop meddling with the UX already and maybe rewrite their PDF parser in a memory-safe language instead?
  - Klonoar 4y ago
    People who complain are loud. Just because they’re loud doesn’t make the UI changes bad. I find I legitimately prefer the newer UI of Big Sur onwards. I just don’t feel the need to shout it from the heavens. An alternative take: you’re really going to suggest that one of the richest companies in the world doesn’t do extensive UI/UX testing before putting things out the door? They’re not just saying “yeah, this looks nice - ship it!”.
    - CoryAlexMartin 4y ago
      Why do you prefer the new UI? I can make a list of reasons why it's bad. The only reason I can see why anyone would prefer it is because it looks "cleaner", but that cleanness is artificial and gets in the way when trying to parse and use the software. A good UI designer makes buttons look like buttons so our brain can quickly recognize them as such, without mistaking them for something else. A good designer has the window title in the same place no matter the application, so we know where to look before we even look. A good designer gives us a place to reliably perform common actions such as dragging the window. We use our computers daily, and even imperceptible improvements to cognitive load and the amount of time it takes to perform actions make a difference over time. When I use my 2009 iMac running Snow Leaoprd, I perceive a reduction in friction compared to the latest macOS versions, and even compared to Catalina, which I use as my primary OS.
ben_w 4y ago
It's easy to rose-tint the past. I also remember the hockey puck mouse, the UI skeuomorphic choice to combine "brushed metal" window backgrounds with "plastic" buttons and "black and white LCD" info panels in iTunes and Quick Time Player, and the placement of the apple logo in the middle of the menu bar.
- dylan604 4y ago
  >the placement of the apple logo in the middle of the menu bar. wait, what? when did this happen? I do not have any memory of the Apple logo being anywhere other than the upper left hand corner of the menu bar. I do however remember the G3 PowerBooks with lit logo on the lid that was UPSIDE DOWN when open and in use
  - filchermcurr 4y ago
    I think it was only in the 10.0 beta: https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/1h39-png.780020/ https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/1h39-png.780020/ But I've been wrong before! At least twice.
    - dylan604 4y ago
      Holy Shite!! That's so weird, it took me a bit longer than I'd like to admit to see it. A 10.0 beta looks like they ultimately made the better decision as I've never seen that image, nor, obviously, used that interface. Even prior versions to 10.0 didn't do that kind of stupidity. I honestly feel like beta testers aren't paid their value for dealing with that kind of asinine BS. Luckily, they seemed to have learned quickly and never released to public with that monstrosity.
    - grishka 4y ago
      Did they dig up the code for positioning the menu items around that icon to use it for the notch? :D
npunt 4y ago
> So then how does one explain the unending UI regressions with every single major update? Strategy Tax. They have a bigger strategy they are pursuing to align iOS<>MacOS. This is the big ecosystem play that raises ARPU and improves customer loyalty. This means standardization of UI to improve approachability for iOS users, who outnumber MacOS users considerably but whom are less loyal customers than combined iOS+MacOS users. There's a secondary argument about moving off ObjC and code maintenance, since they want to gain the value of more modern language & to have new devs be able to jump on old products. This means every part of MacOS & every app is probably slated to be rewritten in Swift & SwiftUI as time goes on.
zitterbewegung 4y ago
If you can run the beta you should complain about it to feedback but the new UI is harder to navigate. It seems like they are incrementally changing the UI to be the same across the product line though….
- grishka 4y ago
  > It seems like they are incrementally changing the UI to be the same across the product line though…. And this is a misguided idea to begin with. Input devices are different, interaction paradigms are different, why should UI ever be similar? IMO when designing macOS, they should simply forget that iOS exists.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > If you can run the beta you should complain about it to feedback On the WWDC talk show Craig Federighi said that the new settings have been "carefully crafted". This is what "carefully crafted" is in Apple parlance these days.
saagarjha 4y ago
Different people work on different things.

selectodude 4y ago

> This whole system preferences thing for example Do you remember what the battery icon in System Preferences looked like in the first beta of Mac OS 12? It's a beta. Give it some time. It's not out yet.

grishka 4y ago
I'm very doubtful that by the time it reaches release, they'll bring back the icon grid and the sensible layouts (instead of those stupid iOS-like lists) in the panes themselves.
- danaris 4y ago
  Frankly, the icon grid was arranged somewhat arbitrarily to begin with. I'd be quite happy to have a largely-alphabetical list, making it much easier to actually find the specific preference pane I'm looking for.
  - grishka 4y ago
    There used to be labeled categories that made sense. Then they removed the labels, and then they merged some of the categories.
    - dividedbyzero 4y ago
      I've not tried out Ventura myself yet, but from the footage I've seen, the new settings app seems like an upgrade to me. I've never really found my way around the icon grid, none of the iterations since Leopard worked well for me (and I've probably used all of them), so good riddance, happy to see them they try something new. Those lists may break some people's muscle memory, but I'm way faster skimming through a list than finding things in a more or less arbitrary 2d layout. And besides, it's looks pretty similar to iOS, and if that's executed well, then I should be able to share muscle memory between iOS and macOS, like with Control Center (which is neat).
      - dmitriid 4y ago
        The new settings forget that desktop OSes are desktop OSes and have a rich library of controls that have interaction modes distinct from touch. See this: https://twitter.com/siracusa/status/1534261202167152649 https://twitter.com/siracusa/status/1534261202167152649 Instead of distinct readable controls with clear interactions it's a sea of gray upon gray upon gray. It breaks Apple's own HIGs which says not to (over)use switches, and use checkboxes instead. The drop downs no longer look like they can be interacted with. Where you'd have settings that can easily fit on a single pane in multicolumn view, you now have lists upon lists upon lists that are entirely alien to the Mac OS https://twitter.com/oskargroth/status/1534133558817742848 https://twitter.com/oskargroth/status/1534133558817742848 Interface consistency is a bullshit goal: https://twitter.com/MarioGuzman/status/1534585939971801088 https://twitter.com/MarioGuzman/status/1534585939971801088
  - pram 4y ago
    You can make the current preferences panel alphabetical.
  - NaOH 4y ago
    I'm still running OS X (10.11, El Capitan), but System Preferences under that OS had a View menu option Organize Alphabetically. That was present in many (all?) versions of OS X. I don't know if/when that may have been removed.
    - OberstKrueger 4y ago
      It's still there on Monterey, so any removal or altering of functionality will be part of the redesign in Ventura.
    - danaris 4y ago
      Well I'll be darned. I never noticed that. Thanks!
- zitterbewegung 4y ago
  Every time I would open system preferences I would just use the search bar to open what I was looking for. I think they should have just either grouped the icons better or let you choose. Right now the current layout doesn’t fit unless you make it bigger which is weird on my XDR when I can just make it longer …
- derefr 4y ago
  What do you mean, iOS-like? The new System Preferences has a very clear precedent in macOS: https://www.versionmuseum.com/images/operating-systems/classic-mac-os/classic-mac-os%5E1987%5Esystem-4-control-panel.jpg https://www.versionmuseum.com/images/operating-systems/class...
  - grishka 4y ago
    The new preference panes themselves are very iOS-like, and that's unprecedented.
    - andrekandre 4y ago
      i reminds more of gnome tbh post big-sur, at least dark-theme, the overall ui looks very much like gnome in many ways...
      - grishka 4y ago
        And modern Gnome is also terrible because they insist on supporting touchscreens as first-class input devices at the expense of sanely sized controls for the remaining 95% of users.
        andrekandre 4y ago
        yea, i suppose that is the common theme between the two... at least it would explain a lot...
        grishka 4y ago
        Gnome is at least capable of running on devices that have touchscreens. There aren't many of these, and many people who do have a touchscreen on their laptop don't use it, but at least it's a somewhat defensible position. Apple, on the other hand, still maintains two separate platforms for touch and non-touch input. There isn't a single Mac with a touchscreen and there probably won't be any in the foreseeable future. This design thus makes absolutely zero sense in macOS.

marcellus23 4y ago

> So then how does one explain the unending UI regressions with every single major update? That's easy: not everyone agrees they're regressions.

grishka 4y ago
They clearly are regressions because they confuse many people and make a worse use of the same screen area. Also what are the problems being solved by these redesigns and rearrangements? What was solved by going flat in 10.9 -> 10.10? What was solved by going even flatter, and using the dreaded SF Symbols icons everywhere, in 10.15 -> 11.0? It's a done product — it's been one for quite a while. Could they just stop meddling with the UX already and maybe rewrite their PDF parser in a memory-safe language instead?
- Klonoar 4y ago
  People who complain are loud. Just because they’re loud doesn’t make the UI changes bad. I find I legitimately prefer the newer UI of Big Sur onwards. I just don’t feel the need to shout it from the heavens. An alternative take: you’re really going to suggest that one of the richest companies in the world doesn’t do extensive UI/UX testing before putting things out the door? They’re not just saying “yeah, this looks nice - ship it!”.
  - CoryAlexMartin 4y ago
    Why do you prefer the new UI? I can make a list of reasons why it's bad. The only reason I can see why anyone would prefer it is because it looks "cleaner", but that cleanness is artificial and gets in the way when trying to parse and use the software. A good UI designer makes buttons look like buttons so our brain can quickly recognize them as such, without mistaking them for something else. A good designer has the window title in the same place no matter the application, so we know where to look before we even look. A good designer gives us a place to reliably perform common actions such as dragging the window. We use our computers daily, and even imperceptible improvements to cognitive load and the amount of time it takes to perform actions make a difference over time. When I use my 2009 iMac running Snow Leaoprd, I perceive a reduction in friction compared to the latest macOS versions, and even compared to Catalina, which I use as my primary OS.

ben_w 4y ago

It's easy to rose-tint the past. I also remember the hockey puck mouse, the UI skeuomorphic choice to combine "brushed metal" window backgrounds with "plastic" buttons and "black and white LCD" info panels in iTunes and Quick Time Player, and the placement of the apple logo in the middle of the menu bar.

dylan604 4y ago
>the placement of the apple logo in the middle of the menu bar. wait, what? when did this happen? I do not have any memory of the Apple logo being anywhere other than the upper left hand corner of the menu bar. I do however remember the G3 PowerBooks with lit logo on the lid that was UPSIDE DOWN when open and in use
- filchermcurr 4y ago
  I think it was only in the 10.0 beta: https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/1h39-png.780020/ https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/1h39-png.780020/ But I've been wrong before! At least twice.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    Holy Shite!! That's so weird, it took me a bit longer than I'd like to admit to see it. A 10.0 beta looks like they ultimately made the better decision as I've never seen that image, nor, obviously, used that interface. Even prior versions to 10.0 didn't do that kind of stupidity. I honestly feel like beta testers aren't paid their value for dealing with that kind of asinine BS. Luckily, they seemed to have learned quickly and never released to public with that monstrosity.
  - grishka 4y ago
    Did they dig up the code for positioning the menu items around that icon to use it for the notch? :D

npunt 4y ago

> So then how does one explain the unending UI regressions with every single major update? Strategy Tax. They have a bigger strategy they are pursuing to align iOS<>MacOS. This is the big ecosystem play that raises ARPU and improves customer loyalty. This means standardization of UI to improve approachability for iOS users, who outnumber MacOS users considerably but whom are less loyal customers than combined iOS+MacOS users. There's a secondary argument about moving off ObjC and code maintenance, since they want to gain the value of more modern language & to have new devs be able to jump on old products. This means every part of MacOS & every app is probably slated to be rewritten in Swift & SwiftUI as time goes on.

zitterbewegung 4y ago

If you can run the beta you should complain about it to feedback but the new UI is harder to navigate. It seems like they are incrementally changing the UI to be the same across the product line though….

grishka 4y ago
> It seems like they are incrementally changing the UI to be the same across the product line though…. And this is a misguided idea to begin with. Input devices are different, interaction paradigms are different, why should UI ever be similar? IMO when designing macOS, they should simply forget that iOS exists.
dmitriid 4y ago
> If you can run the beta you should complain about it to feedback On the WWDC talk show Craig Federighi said that the new settings have been "carefully crafted". This is what "carefully crafted" is in Apple parlance these days.

saagarjha 4y ago

Different people work on different things.