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Two things can be true at the same time. Some kids truly do have a disorder that benefits from medication. Some kids are prescribed medication they don't need s

Two things can be true at the same time. Some kids truly do have a disorder that benefits from medication. Some kids are prescribed medication they don't need simply so they are able to do something that no child should reasonable be expect to do: sit in a chair and listen to people talk at them for 8+ hours a day. One truth does not preclude the other.

thomastjeffery 4y ago
I sat at a desk for 8+ hours a day, then I proceeded to sit at a desk for another 2-4 hours. I didn't have a singular issue with sitting at a desk. I could - and in fact did - sit at a desk from sun up to sun down 5 days a week without complaint. Did I resent it? Yes. Do I think schooling should have been done differently? Yes. Could doing school differently have cured my ADHD symptoms? No. Absolutely not. Living with undiagnosed ADHD is hell, whether you are a child or an adult.
CodeMage 4y ago
That's true. And it's also true that ADHD is overdiagnosed and overtreated, and the rate is non-negligible. That is a problem that both the public and the medical community are aware of. I agree with maintaining awareness of that, but I strongly disagree with going to the extremes and stigmatizing ADHD medication and everyone involved. Look at the comment I objected to. Does it read like a rational, polite way to maintain awareness of that problem? Or does it look like a knee-jerk judgment that's parroting a popular trope?
- ALittleLight 4y ago
  I wrote that it is horrifying so many children are drugged to be more complacent in school. I saw you objecting to that and assumed I'd need to come back and support the idea that ADHD is over diagnosed and over medicated (e.g. the diagnoses have about doubled in the past couple decades in the US and are substantially higher than in European countries and US pharmaceuticals have a history of being over prescribed). Yet now I find that you are already aware ADHD is overdiagnosed and overtreated - so what exactly are you objecting to in my original comment? You don't think it's horrifying that parents, teachers, and doctors are basically conspiring to drug kids to keep them from acting up in schools? School is a pretty boring and restrictive place. Children are notoriously poor at dealing with boring things and young boys in particular are particularly prone to the kind of misbehavior that will get them in trouble and drugged.
  - CodeMage 4y ago
    I've already expressed what I object to: that it's a pithy, kneejerk, judgmental trope-parroting that does more to stigmatize the majority who want to help their kids, than to help combat the abuse perpetrated by the minority of bad parents. It is remarkably difficult to find any figures even estimating the overdiagnosis and overmedication rates for ADHD. Most of the talk around this issue tends to make a big deal out of the rising rate of ADHD diagnoses. Those who talk about it responsibly and rationally recognize right away that this doesn't necessarily mean we have an overdiagnosis crisis on our hands, and seek additional information. The best study I've been able to find about this [1] does indicate that there may be some overdiagnosis and overmedication going on, but even there it's not framed as "parents, teachers, and doctors are basically conspiring to drug kids to keep them from acting up in schools", nor does it lend any credibility to that claim. Are there bad parents who don't want to deal with their kids' behavior and try to get them "drugged into complacence"? Yes, definitely. Do we know how many and how that number compares to other kinds of parental abuse? No, we don't. Is it a problem of epidemic proportions? There's no evidence for that, and the onus is on those of you who make that claim. More importantly, if we distance ourselves from the sensationalist tropes about "drugging kids into complacence", we can ask a better question: are there currently any perverse incentives in the medical community to overdiagnose ADHD and overprescribe medication? This might be the case, but it remains to be proven and it should be dealt with just like any similar case of perverse incentives. So what do I object to? I object to the sensationalist "Will Nobody Think Of The Children" overstatement and hyperbole. I object to people bringing up the same trope over and over again, out of ignorance, and doing their best to stigmatize the vast majority of us who are doing our best to provide our kids with the best life we can. I object to not trying to constructively work to slowly evolve the best approach to dealing with a concrete, real and potentially debilitating problem that was discovered too recently to have a perfect solution to it, just because drumming up outrage and spreading FUD is easier and more gratifying. And yes, school can be a pretty boring and restrictive place, but that's just the tip of the ADHD iceberg. Reducing the whole problem space to just that is not helping, either. [1]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2778451 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... EDIT: I realized that I forgot to provide the link for [1], so I'm adding it now. My apologies for the oversight.
- luckydata 4y ago
  who told you it's over-diagnosed? Science generally agrees ADHD is under-diagnosed. Read the statement of consensus. There's some sort of moral panic cause the beautiful souls of a bunch of people can't fathom stimulants can be used for medical purposes cause "all drugs are bad and Concerta is essentially meth" which is absolute BS. There's no need to spew hearsay and lies when you know next to nothing about a medical condition that affects 5% of the population.
  - CodeMage 4y ago
    I based what I said on the study by Kazda, Bell, Thomas, et al [1], although there's always a chance that I might have misunderstood it. From what I understood, it seems that there's a certain degree of overdiagnosis in milder cases of ADHD. Again, it's perfectly possible that I either misunderstood it or that they're wrong. If you look at the rest of my comments in this discussion, you'll see that I'm not pushing the moral panic you mention -- on the contrary, I'm pushing against it strongly -- and that it's definitely not true that I "know next to nothing" about this condition. It wouldn't surprise me to find that ADHD is being simultaneously over- and under-diagnosed, because it's new enough that we're still discovering more and more about it. That's why I don't dispute that there's probably some degree of overdiagnosis, but I strongly object to pushing the narrative that it's some kind of an overmedication epidemic or crisis. [1]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2778451 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
lghh 4y ago
> One truth does not preclude the other. Do you have any evidence to support that children are prescribed medication to sit in a chair when they don't have ADHD at a high enough clip to warrant the appearance of being concerned about it at equal weight to actually getting those with ADHD help? Comments like this only further stigmatize getting those with ADHD the help they need, so before you make them you'd better be damn sure it's worth it or else you're taking part in stigmatizing parents who get children the help they deserve.

thomastjeffery 4y ago

I sat at a desk for 8+ hours a day, then I proceeded to sit at a desk for another 2-4 hours. I didn't have a singular issue with sitting at a desk. I could - and in fact did - sit at a desk from sun up to sun down 5 days a week without complaint. Did I resent it? Yes. Do I think schooling should have been done differently? Yes. Could doing school differently have cured my ADHD symptoms? No. Absolutely not. Living with undiagnosed ADHD is hell, whether you are a child or an adult.

CodeMage 4y ago

That's true. And it's also true that ADHD is overdiagnosed and overtreated, and the rate is non-negligible. That is a problem that both the public and the medical community are aware of. I agree with maintaining awareness of that, but I strongly disagree with going to the extremes and stigmatizing ADHD medication and everyone involved. Look at the comment I objected to. Does it read like a rational, polite way to maintain awareness of that problem? Or does it look like a knee-jerk judgment that's parroting a popular trope?

ALittleLight 4y ago
I wrote that it is horrifying so many children are drugged to be more complacent in school. I saw you objecting to that and assumed I'd need to come back and support the idea that ADHD is over diagnosed and over medicated (e.g. the diagnoses have about doubled in the past couple decades in the US and are substantially higher than in European countries and US pharmaceuticals have a history of being over prescribed). Yet now I find that you are already aware ADHD is overdiagnosed and overtreated - so what exactly are you objecting to in my original comment? You don't think it's horrifying that parents, teachers, and doctors are basically conspiring to drug kids to keep them from acting up in schools? School is a pretty boring and restrictive place. Children are notoriously poor at dealing with boring things and young boys in particular are particularly prone to the kind of misbehavior that will get them in trouble and drugged.
- CodeMage 4y ago
  I've already expressed what I object to: that it's a pithy, kneejerk, judgmental trope-parroting that does more to stigmatize the majority who want to help their kids, than to help combat the abuse perpetrated by the minority of bad parents. It is remarkably difficult to find any figures even estimating the overdiagnosis and overmedication rates for ADHD. Most of the talk around this issue tends to make a big deal out of the rising rate of ADHD diagnoses. Those who talk about it responsibly and rationally recognize right away that this doesn't necessarily mean we have an overdiagnosis crisis on our hands, and seek additional information. The best study I've been able to find about this [1] does indicate that there may be some overdiagnosis and overmedication going on, but even there it's not framed as "parents, teachers, and doctors are basically conspiring to drug kids to keep them from acting up in schools", nor does it lend any credibility to that claim. Are there bad parents who don't want to deal with their kids' behavior and try to get them "drugged into complacence"? Yes, definitely. Do we know how many and how that number compares to other kinds of parental abuse? No, we don't. Is it a problem of epidemic proportions? There's no evidence for that, and the onus is on those of you who make that claim. More importantly, if we distance ourselves from the sensationalist tropes about "drugging kids into complacence", we can ask a better question: are there currently any perverse incentives in the medical community to overdiagnose ADHD and overprescribe medication? This might be the case, but it remains to be proven and it should be dealt with just like any similar case of perverse incentives. So what do I object to? I object to the sensationalist "Will Nobody Think Of The Children" overstatement and hyperbole. I object to people bringing up the same trope over and over again, out of ignorance, and doing their best to stigmatize the vast majority of us who are doing our best to provide our kids with the best life we can. I object to not trying to constructively work to slowly evolve the best approach to dealing with a concrete, real and potentially debilitating problem that was discovered too recently to have a perfect solution to it, just because drumming up outrage and spreading FUD is easier and more gratifying. And yes, school can be a pretty boring and restrictive place, but that's just the tip of the ADHD iceberg. Reducing the whole problem space to just that is not helping, either. [1]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2778451 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... EDIT: I realized that I forgot to provide the link for [1], so I'm adding it now. My apologies for the oversight.
luckydata 4y ago
who told you it's over-diagnosed? Science generally agrees ADHD is under-diagnosed. Read the statement of consensus. There's some sort of moral panic cause the beautiful souls of a bunch of people can't fathom stimulants can be used for medical purposes cause "all drugs are bad and Concerta is essentially meth" which is absolute BS. There's no need to spew hearsay and lies when you know next to nothing about a medical condition that affects 5% of the population.
- CodeMage 4y ago
  I based what I said on the study by Kazda, Bell, Thomas, et al [1], although there's always a chance that I might have misunderstood it. From what I understood, it seems that there's a certain degree of overdiagnosis in milder cases of ADHD. Again, it's perfectly possible that I either misunderstood it or that they're wrong. If you look at the rest of my comments in this discussion, you'll see that I'm not pushing the moral panic you mention -- on the contrary, I'm pushing against it strongly -- and that it's definitely not true that I "know next to nothing" about this condition. It wouldn't surprise me to find that ADHD is being simultaneously over- and under-diagnosed, because it's new enough that we're still discovering more and more about it. That's why I don't dispute that there's probably some degree of overdiagnosis, but I strongly object to pushing the narrative that it's some kind of an overmedication epidemic or crisis. [1]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2778451 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...

lghh 4y ago

> One truth does not preclude the other. Do you have any evidence to support that children are prescribed medication to sit in a chair when they don't have ADHD at a high enough clip to warrant the appearance of being concerned about it at equal weight to actually getting those with ADHD help? Comments like this only further stigmatize getting those with ADHD the help they need, so before you make them you'd better be damn sure it's worth it or else you're taking part in stigmatizing parents who get children the help they deserve.