4 ms·

Spring isn't a web framework, it's gaffer tape for a language that just isn't good enough without it; that's why it's [spring] still around and its use is so pr

by hurril 4y ago

Spring isn't a web framework, it's gaffer tape for a language that just isn't good enough without it; that's why it's [spring] still around and its use is so prevalent. It's not at all mainly for very specific functionality in the sense that your post sort of implies [for web, and databasy things I presume]; in fact: it's just for wiring and for applying/ attaching things to "abstractions". As in: please decorate these sets of things with this behaviour. If you'd chosen languages that permit abstractions in a real and usable sense, then you would not need this. In fact: with _one_ exception, I've never had a container in any Haskell, Scala or F# project ever. Do you think we ever needed one? And this is my point: those other languages have seen _tons_ of development in the "abstraction arena" with (internal) DSL:s and super powerful frameworks for making powerful DSL:s. Java has had none of this because these concerns har all (poorly) handled at the container level. The tacked on "functional stuff" is for sure cool coming from a Java backround, but they're pretty much useless.

cityofdelusion 4y ago
Spot-on analysis. I work on a team (that strongly prefers using Kotlin) in the CI-CD world. Despite web dev only being a minor part of our work, Spring just attaches itself to everything like a disease. I feel like it has gotten to the point where most Java developers that interview know Spring and not Java. Dependencies themselves also become attached to Spring (our example: bringing in Kafka -- super painful without Spring and hardly any examples or docs.) This "containerizing" is very unique to Java -- I've never seen anything like it in the other various languages I've used. I won't even mention the total disaster of JavaEE containers.
- hurril 4y ago
  Yes, it is terrible and it's the main reason I'll never be doing any Java, ever again. I did 10 years up until Java 6 (or so) and then jumped ship in favour of Scala (at that point.) Now, Scala for sure isn't perfect and Java isn't terrible, but mainstream Java really is. My point, though, is not to throw up all over Java but rather to quibble with the statement that Java has somehow evolved since then. It really hasn't!

by hurril 4y ago

cityofdelusion 4y ago

Spot-on analysis. I work on a team (that strongly prefers using Kotlin) in the CI-CD world. Despite web dev only being a minor part of our work, Spring just attaches itself to everything like a disease. I feel like it has gotten to the point where most Java developers that interview know Spring and not Java. Dependencies themselves also become attached to Spring (our example: bringing in Kafka -- super painful without Spring and hardly any examples or docs.) This "containerizing" is very unique to Java -- I've never seen anything like it in the other various languages I've used. I won't even mention the total disaster of JavaEE containers.

hurril 4y ago
Yes, it is terrible and it's the main reason I'll never be doing any Java, ever again. I did 10 years up until Java 6 (or so) and then jumped ship in favour of Scala (at that point.) Now, Scala for sure isn't perfect and Java isn't terrible, but mainstream Java really is. My point, though, is not to throw up all over Java but rather to quibble with the statement that Java has somehow evolved since then. It really hasn't!