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I can't get on the "It is a hard-knock life for Software developers" train. We are very-very well compensated, and we are insufferable. I do understand the iss

I can't get on the "It is a hard-knock life for Software developers" train. We are very-very well compensated, and we are insufferable. I do understand the issue. Humans are prone to complain about any slight whether real or imagined. Millionaires will complain about not having enough money, A-list celebrities will complain about not having enough visibility, sports stars will complain about every foul play. Money just does not lead to life satisfaction, only craving. I just have to accept that this is the human condition.

ed_elliott_asc 4y ago
The thing that really crystallises how spoilt we are is: https://nohello.club/ https://nohello.club/ We take ourselves so seriously we cannot afford the time for someone to be polite!
- pawelduda 4y ago
  Even the website itself states this pretty much on top: > Do still be polite, and feel free to have social conversations! Given that, I don't really see what's impolite about it, especially in an async conversations, where the other person is not expected to be on their feet, waiting for incoming messages.
- qgin 4y ago
  Don’t mix up engineer culture with being spolied. Engineers will find ways to trade social boilerplate for efficiency whether they get paid 500k or nothing at all.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
q-big 4y ago
> I can't get on the "It is a hard-knock life for Software developers" train. We are very-very well compensated, and we are insufferable. The compensation can be high if you work in Silicon Valley (even though the cost of living is high there). The standard corporate programming job is already paid much worse. Also in a lot of countries that are not the USA, software development is not such a well-paying job.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  I don't think there is that many countries were software developers aren't reasonably well compensated compared to local standard of pay. And that is the level that we should really compare to. Is the pay above median or in top 25% for the location? I would guess that it is for most of the world.
  - GFischer 4y ago
    My brother in law lived in Austria, he was paid similarly to any other job there, there was an impassable ceiling, so he moved to San Francisco and makes 10x. I looked for software development jobs in Spain, and they pay even less than in my native Uruguay. And forget about six figures unless you're in the US, England, Switzerland or Australia or a top company in Europe.
- rednerrus 4y ago
  The average SWE in America is making $93,000. Average teacher is about $65,000, Average construction worker $38,000, average bartender $65,000, average hotel worker $45,000.
  - shakow 4y ago
    Average construction worker, bartender & hotel worker don't have a Bsc/Msc.
    - grumple 4y ago
      Average SWE doesn't need one either. Most of the people I once worked with in the service industry had degrees though. Sure, not compsci, but something. Also most construction workers I've know made way more than that average, often close to 6 figures if not above it. Of course I'm in a big city, may skew things.
      - shakow 4y ago
        Maybe that's a geographical thing; I live in Europe, and there are barely any SWE without a master or equivalent here.
fleddr 4y ago
Compensation does not reduce the type of suffering software developers typically endure (or complain about). Office politics, skills evaporating, high work pressure, ageism, boredom, physical inactivity, an indoor life, over-consumption of information...all of these factors have their effect on one's mental state as well as body. Pay does not fix that.
trashtester 4y ago
> I can't get on the "It is a hard-knock life for Software developers" train. We are very-very well compensated, and we are insufferable. This. People don't feel sorry for people who are in the top 20% in terms of salaries, when they complain about not being in the top 5%. About a decade ago, or a bit more, I noticed that the the crowd over at slashdot started complaining in similar ways, either that some MBA was compensated better, or that H1B holders were suppressing salaries. Maybe I'm prejudiced, but it seems to me that this kind of thinking is common in mediocre developers who are disappointed that they are stuck in an average-or-below paying programming job from around the age of 35-40 on. Maybe their salary even went down a bit, in real terms, after the latest downturn. I simply have trouble empathizing with people who have it better than most other poeple, but still complain like that. If they were industrial workers that started out low (at least for the country), but still lost their job to outsourcing to Asia, and were unable to get another, I would empathize a bit more. I don't think it's the job of governments to protect top 20% earners from competition from abroad, and get fed up when entitled people demand such protectionism. I stopped following slashdot because the discussions often turned into something I would expect in a labor union forum, instead focusing on fresh perspectives in tech an science. But if it is a generational sort of thing, I suppose that is why it is becoming more common on HN about now.

ed_elliott_asc 4y ago

The thing that really crystallises how spoilt we are is: https://nohello.club/ https://nohello.club/ We take ourselves so seriously we cannot afford the time for someone to be polite!

pawelduda 4y ago
Even the website itself states this pretty much on top: > Do still be polite, and feel free to have social conversations! Given that, I don't really see what's impolite about it, especially in an async conversations, where the other person is not expected to be on their feet, waiting for incoming messages.
qgin 4y ago
Don’t mix up engineer culture with being spolied. Engineers will find ways to trade social boilerplate for efficiency whether they get paid 500k or nothing at all.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

q-big 4y ago

> I can't get on the "It is a hard-knock life for Software developers" train. We are very-very well compensated, and we are insufferable. The compensation can be high if you work in Silicon Valley (even though the cost of living is high there). The standard corporate programming job is already paid much worse. Also in a lot of countries that are not the USA, software development is not such a well-paying job.

Ekaros 4y ago
I don't think there is that many countries were software developers aren't reasonably well compensated compared to local standard of pay. And that is the level that we should really compare to. Is the pay above median or in top 25% for the location? I would guess that it is for most of the world.
- GFischer 4y ago
  My brother in law lived in Austria, he was paid similarly to any other job there, there was an impassable ceiling, so he moved to San Francisco and makes 10x. I looked for software development jobs in Spain, and they pay even less than in my native Uruguay. And forget about six figures unless you're in the US, England, Switzerland or Australia or a top company in Europe.
rednerrus 4y ago
The average SWE in America is making $93,000. Average teacher is about $65,000, Average construction worker $38,000, average bartender $65,000, average hotel worker $45,000.
- shakow 4y ago
  Average construction worker, bartender & hotel worker don't have a Bsc/Msc.
  - grumple 4y ago
    Average SWE doesn't need one either. Most of the people I once worked with in the service industry had degrees though. Sure, not compsci, but something. Also most construction workers I've know made way more than that average, often close to 6 figures if not above it. Of course I'm in a big city, may skew things.
    - shakow 4y ago
      Maybe that's a geographical thing; I live in Europe, and there are barely any SWE without a master or equivalent here.

fleddr 4y ago

Compensation does not reduce the type of suffering software developers typically endure (or complain about). Office politics, skills evaporating, high work pressure, ageism, boredom, physical inactivity, an indoor life, over-consumption of information...all of these factors have their effect on one's mental state as well as body. Pay does not fix that.

trashtester 4y ago

> I can't get on the "It is a hard-knock life for Software developers" train. We are very-very well compensated, and we are insufferable. This. People don't feel sorry for people who are in the top 20% in terms of salaries, when they complain about not being in the top 5%. About a decade ago, or a bit more, I noticed that the the crowd over at slashdot started complaining in similar ways, either that some MBA was compensated better, or that H1B holders were suppressing salaries. Maybe I'm prejudiced, but it seems to me that this kind of thinking is common in mediocre developers who are disappointed that they are stuck in an average-or-below paying programming job from around the age of 35-40 on. Maybe their salary even went down a bit, in real terms, after the latest downturn. I simply have trouble empathizing with people who have it better than most other poeple, but still complain like that. If they were industrial workers that started out low (at least for the country), but still lost their job to outsourcing to Asia, and were unable to get another, I would empathize a bit more. I don't think it's the job of governments to protect top 20% earners from competition from abroad, and get fed up when entitled people demand such protectionism. I stopped following slashdot because the discussions often turned into something I would expect in a labor union forum, instead focusing on fresh perspectives in tech an science. But if it is a generational sort of thing, I suppose that is why it is becoming more common on HN about now.