6 ms·

This seems to be a perspective that's exclusively silicon valley (perhaps large parts of the US) based. Not at all true in Europe at the least. Not that it's a

This seems to be a perspective that's exclusively silicon valley (perhaps large parts of the US) based. Not at all true in Europe at the least. Not that it's a bad job by any stretch of the imagination, but even low six figures is really rare in the EU for Software Development. Easiest is also highly subjective, if your job is making wordpress templates/sites then sure. If you're working on complexer systems then this statement is horseshit. I've done physical and service jobs that were both easier than the software development I do, only difference was that the physical job was also physically exhausting.

bluGill 4y ago
My company has noticed that good developers in Germany are cheaper than in India. Good is key here, you can get bad developers in India for very cheap (this might be good enough). The highest paid software positions in Germany are non-union jobs and the majority are not willing to leave the union for more money, which means they are refusing to do the work of a senior engineer, and this in turn means we can't use the cheap labor for lack of leaders.
- keewee7 4y ago
  I remember reading Indians on r/DevOps who were surprised they were earning more than Germans in DevOps/Ops positions.
  - mathverse 4y ago
    Adjusted for costs of living or TCO? IT pays peanuts in Europe.
    - qgin 4y ago
      It doesn’t make sense to me why pay is so low in Europe. Is there actually that much less demand relative to supply?
      - mathverse 4y ago
        Taxes. You are not getting that much in net salary above certain amount. Europe is a hellhole if you are a young ambitious individual.
      - mrtksn 4y ago
        It's not taxes, the taxes are high but the gross salaries in EU and even in the UK are very low, compared to the USA. You don't have stuff like developer making 200K a year but taking home 50K a year, it's more like making 60K a year and taking home 40K. IMHO it's the culture and the VC environment. There's simply not that much money around to throw at moonshot projects, therefore you don't have many unicorns that lose a few billion euros a year paying extravagant salaries for talent. Obviously EU is a very rich place but people with money invest their money in stuff that are profitable right away, likely to be profitable in short term because a giant company is behind it or invest in the US companies if they are more adventurous.
- ju-st 4y ago
  > highest paid software positions in Germany are non-union jobs How does one identify a well paying non-union employer? Noname companies in almost all cases pay much less than union employers.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    This is Germany, not the US, rules are different. All I know is a lot of great engineers at my company are internationally refusing more pay to non union jobs. I.have no idea if it applies to other companies, or what the benifits are
commandlinefan 4y ago
> Easiest is also highly subjective Anecdotally, I've observed (over a 30-year career) that less than half of the people who have the qualifications can actually produce halfway decent code (as in code that doesn't crash the first time it's used or introduce new problems).
electroly 4y ago
I suspect this was simply so obvious that OP didn't feel it was worth mentioning. If your goal is making a lot of money in software development, you'd be a fool to stay in Europe. You have to move to the US. That's where the money is.
Gigachad 4y ago
I’m from a small Australian city. I earn in the top 5% of the country with 8 years experience and no degree. And I see all my friends who picked software in the same situation. It’s probably the most privileged position possible.
- fileeditview 4y ago
  Maybe it's true in Australia.. however here in Germany e.g. your chance of being a top earner if you have no degree is near nil. Usually you are expected to have university degrees for tech jobs. There are also some without but it's the minority and their promotion prospects are a lot worse.
  - djvdq 4y ago
    I was thinking about moving to Germany from Poland. I was surprised that devs there has such low wages in comparison to cost of living. I abandoned the idea after it turned out my QoL will decrease quite a lot even I'd get more money than I've now
    - klausa 4y ago
      I'm curious what numbers you've heard, my quality of life here is significantly higher than it was in Warsaw, but I was making relatively much less back then.
      - djvdq 4y ago
        I'm the "worse" type of developer - I'm working with test automation so salary is a bit lower than for "normal" devs. But what I've heard 60k EUR is what I can get (I was reading about Berlin - I've also read that e.g. Dresned has the same wages as I have now). But this money will be for my whole family (wife is staying home with childrens right now and for some more time before they'll go to the kindergarten) so I also will need bigger appartment (=more expensive). And after my rough calculations it turned out that our QoL will probably drop. Not that it will be _bad_ but visibly worse than it's now.

bluGill 4y ago

My company has noticed that good developers in Germany are cheaper than in India. Good is key here, you can get bad developers in India for very cheap (this might be good enough). The highest paid software positions in Germany are non-union jobs and the majority are not willing to leave the union for more money, which means they are refusing to do the work of a senior engineer, and this in turn means we can't use the cheap labor for lack of leaders.

keewee7 4y ago
I remember reading Indians on r/DevOps who were surprised they were earning more than Germans in DevOps/Ops positions.
- mathverse 4y ago
  Adjusted for costs of living or TCO? IT pays peanuts in Europe.
  - qgin 4y ago
    It doesn’t make sense to me why pay is so low in Europe. Is there actually that much less demand relative to supply?
    - mathverse 4y ago
      Taxes. You are not getting that much in net salary above certain amount. Europe is a hellhole if you are a young ambitious individual.
    - mrtksn 4y ago
      It's not taxes, the taxes are high but the gross salaries in EU and even in the UK are very low, compared to the USA. You don't have stuff like developer making 200K a year but taking home 50K a year, it's more like making 60K a year and taking home 40K. IMHO it's the culture and the VC environment. There's simply not that much money around to throw at moonshot projects, therefore you don't have many unicorns that lose a few billion euros a year paying extravagant salaries for talent. Obviously EU is a very rich place but people with money invest their money in stuff that are profitable right away, likely to be profitable in short term because a giant company is behind it or invest in the US companies if they are more adventurous.
ju-st 4y ago
> highest paid software positions in Germany are non-union jobs How does one identify a well paying non-union employer? Noname companies in almost all cases pay much less than union employers.
- bluGill 4y ago
  This is Germany, not the US, rules are different. All I know is a lot of great engineers at my company are internationally refusing more pay to non union jobs. I.have no idea if it applies to other companies, or what the benifits are

commandlinefan 4y ago

> Easiest is also highly subjective Anecdotally, I've observed (over a 30-year career) that less than half of the people who have the qualifications can actually produce halfway decent code (as in code that doesn't crash the first time it's used or introduce new problems).

electroly 4y ago

I suspect this was simply so obvious that OP didn't feel it was worth mentioning. If your goal is making a lot of money in software development, you'd be a fool to stay in Europe. You have to move to the US. That's where the money is.

Gigachad 4y ago

I’m from a small Australian city. I earn in the top 5% of the country with 8 years experience and no degree. And I see all my friends who picked software in the same situation. It’s probably the most privileged position possible.

fileeditview 4y ago
Maybe it's true in Australia.. however here in Germany e.g. your chance of being a top earner if you have no degree is near nil. Usually you are expected to have university degrees for tech jobs. There are also some without but it's the minority and their promotion prospects are a lot worse.
- djvdq 4y ago
  I was thinking about moving to Germany from Poland. I was surprised that devs there has such low wages in comparison to cost of living. I abandoned the idea after it turned out my QoL will decrease quite a lot even I'd get more money than I've now
  - klausa 4y ago
    I'm curious what numbers you've heard, my quality of life here is significantly higher than it was in Warsaw, but I was making relatively much less back then.
    - djvdq 4y ago
      I'm the "worse" type of developer - I'm working with test automation so salary is a bit lower than for "normal" devs. But what I've heard 60k EUR is what I can get (I was reading about Berlin - I've also read that e.g. Dresned has the same wages as I have now). But this money will be for my whole family (wife is staying home with childrens right now and for some more time before they'll go to the kindergarten) so I also will need bigger appartment (=more expensive). And after my rough calculations it turned out that our QoL will probably drop. Not that it will be _bad_ but visibly worse than it's now.