6 ms·

SWE's are not the only ones that think that their pay is low compared to their intelligence level, their education level, how tough, inconvenient or important t

SWE's are not the only ones that think that their pay is low compared to their intelligence level, their education level, how tough, inconvenient or important their work is or what they feel they deserve for some other reason. For instance, I'm sure there are plenty of HR managers in various companies that are secretly furious about all the young young mostly males, mostly white or asian, still in their 20s, join the company and make more than they do.

drekipus 4y ago
I'm sure HR managers know that the majority of jobs they are hiring for are different from the job they're in, with different pay scales and demographics. Infact I'd say it's their profession.
- sshine 4y ago
  Also, HR Manager is a low-risk job. Recruiter is the high-risk equivalent. So not only do you compete with a lot of people for the job, the pay structure does not depend on performance.
  - cableshaft 4y ago
    Maybe, but I've also seen HR departments be the first to go in lean times. We effectively didn't have an HR department at my previous job, at a company of 500+ people. And they did when I first started, about a dozen people.
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Why would the ethnicity or sex matter when these HR managers would still see the same differences regardless of ethnicity or sex? Either way, I'd think twice about putting HR managers as victims here when they are the main perpetrators of low raise budgets and high hiring budgets.
- trashtester 4y ago
  When people see that some other group of people, with identity traits different from themselves, are doing better than themselves on some metric, it often induces resentment. That's just a fact. Whether its justified or not, varies with circumstances and what ethical system people have. When black people in the 50's felt that way about white people and their privileges, most people today would see those concerns as justified. When German people in 1922 became angry because most jews had enough money for food, while many Germans went hungry, and started believing in conspiracy theories, like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, most people today would say they were not justified. (though there are still some who secrely believe those things) And when Hutu's wanted to "cut down the tall trees" in 1994, most people in the west only read the headlines, and didn't care that much. In the case of HR managers being unhappy that software developer make more than them, some will blame some generic "wage gap", others will explicitly believe in some kind of Patriarchy conspiracy theory. (And a lot of HR managers, of course, are simply fine with things as they are.)
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    I have a hard time believing the reaction would be any different if a bunch of older white collars would stare at young Hispanic software devs making more instead of Asian devs. Only difference being they couldn't hide their jealousy behind politics.
    - trashtester 4y ago
      I don't think it makes any difference to most "older white collars" whether those devs are hispanic or asian. Boomers were born at a time when racism against asians were much worse than racism against (non-black) hispanic people. There are, I would say, two main forms of racism. One is directed at those people see as inferior. Typically, that is right-wing racism. That one is created when some other group, on average, performs worse (or appears to do so) than the group the racist identifies with. Such a racist may see the hated group as sub-human. They may not feel threatened outright, but may be concerned if the population of that hated group grows too quickly. The other group, is resentment racism (or sexism or other similar identity-group-ism), which is triggered when confronted with groups that do better than the group the racist person identifies with. This is more common on the left*. This kind of racist will see the hated group as outright evil. And if they feel sufficiently threatened by the hated group, may attempt outright genocide, since they may feel they are fighting for their life. * Nazies were full of both kinds of racism. They saw Roma people as virmin, Slavic people as merely inferior, while they were accusing Jews of attempting to seek world domination. In other words, Roma and Slavic people were sub-human while Jews were seen as Evil, inferior only for moral reasons. And as we know, the hatred against to Jews was by far the strongest. Mein Kampf describes this in detail.
psychoslave 4y ago
>SWE's are not the only ones that think that their pay is low compared to their intelligence level, their education level, how tough, inconvenient or important their work is or what they feel they deserve for some other reason. Sure, but it doesn’t mean some or all of them are not right, especially when the unequal distribution of wealth is well known and documented to evolve for the worst. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth#Global_inequality_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth#Global_...
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  This has to do with ownership and inheritance, not that SWEs are poorly paid laborers. Many software engineers are in the global 1% richest.
  - deathanatos 4y ago
    > Many software engineers are in the global 1% richest. I mean, some are, yes, but … I'm not, and I know many SWEs who aren't. > According to the 2018 Global Wealth Report from Credit Suisse Research Institute, you need a net worth of $871,320 (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/01/how-much-money-you-need-to-be-part-of-the-1-percent-worldwide.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/01/how-much-money-you-need-to-b...) I miss that cutoff. But if you narrow to my country, the requirement for being in the top 1% jumps to $11M.
    - whimsicalism 4y ago
      Yes, I said global quite intentionally.
    - trashtester 4y ago
      Most people don't get into the top 1% net worth by receiving a salary. To get there, you probably have to invest over a long time horizon (possibly more than a generation) while keeping spending to a minimum, inherit the wealth outright, or start a successful company. Even successful lawyers need to be senior partners to achieve that kind of wealth ($11M), and don't forget that for each such lawyer, there may be many people who end up as some clerk or generic legal representative in some organization, who may have salaries much closer to a SWE.
dhzhzjsbevs 4y ago
You're not wrong. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKHupWzB-g https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKHupWzB-g
- trashtester 4y ago
  Didn't that video make her lose her job?
TexanFeller 4y ago
HR managers are rarely ever intelligent. The work they do doesn’t require it and intelligent people don’t want to do a job where they’ll be surrounded by lower intelligence people.
- trashtester 4y ago
  Maybe some HR managers believe that empathy and "EQ" are more important than IQ? Maybe they even think that intelligence is a social construct invented by the Patriarchy for the purpose of oppressing people who are not "cis white males"? Who knows, maybe for some, these ideas may even have been part of their education....
  - grumple 4y ago
    > Maybe some HR managers believe that empathy and "EQ" are more important than IQ? Have you ever interacted with HR? I'm pretty sure they are trained to be cold and uncaring, and to apply business rules without exception. Never heard an ounce of empathy from any of them, it always feels like interacting with an automaton that was somehow annoyed with you.
    - trashtester 4y ago
      > Have you ever interacted with HR? Plenty of times. Some that are really smart, some that are not. Some that are cold and "corporate", some that are getting way too personal. (As in a "metoo" moment.) Politically, I've met at least one that was secretly a eugenicist and others that are pretty far left. All of them individuals, but several of them collectivists.
  - lmm 4y ago
    > Maybe some HR managers believe that empathy and "EQ" are more important than IQ? > Maybe they even think that intelligence is a social construct invented by the Patriarchy for the purpose of oppressing people who are not "cis white males"? Are you agreeing or disagreeing with the person you replied to?

drekipus 4y ago

I'm sure HR managers know that the majority of jobs they are hiring for are different from the job they're in, with different pay scales and demographics. Infact I'd say it's their profession.

sshine 4y ago
Also, HR Manager is a low-risk job. Recruiter is the high-risk equivalent. So not only do you compete with a lot of people for the job, the pay structure does not depend on performance.
- cableshaft 4y ago
  Maybe, but I've also seen HR departments be the first to go in lean times. We effectively didn't have an HR department at my previous job, at a company of 500+ people. And they did when I first started, about a dozen people.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

Why would the ethnicity or sex matter when these HR managers would still see the same differences regardless of ethnicity or sex? Either way, I'd think twice about putting HR managers as victims here when they are the main perpetrators of low raise budgets and high hiring budgets.

trashtester 4y ago
When people see that some other group of people, with identity traits different from themselves, are doing better than themselves on some metric, it often induces resentment. That's just a fact. Whether its justified or not, varies with circumstances and what ethical system people have. When black people in the 50's felt that way about white people and their privileges, most people today would see those concerns as justified. When German people in 1922 became angry because most jews had enough money for food, while many Germans went hungry, and started believing in conspiracy theories, like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, most people today would say they were not justified. (though there are still some who secrely believe those things) And when Hutu's wanted to "cut down the tall trees" in 1994, most people in the west only read the headlines, and didn't care that much. In the case of HR managers being unhappy that software developer make more than them, some will blame some generic "wage gap", others will explicitly believe in some kind of Patriarchy conspiracy theory. (And a lot of HR managers, of course, are simply fine with things as they are.)
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  I have a hard time believing the reaction would be any different if a bunch of older white collars would stare at young Hispanic software devs making more instead of Asian devs. Only difference being they couldn't hide their jealousy behind politics.
  - trashtester 4y ago
    I don't think it makes any difference to most "older white collars" whether those devs are hispanic or asian. Boomers were born at a time when racism against asians were much worse than racism against (non-black) hispanic people. There are, I would say, two main forms of racism. One is directed at those people see as inferior. Typically, that is right-wing racism. That one is created when some other group, on average, performs worse (or appears to do so) than the group the racist identifies with. Such a racist may see the hated group as sub-human. They may not feel threatened outright, but may be concerned if the population of that hated group grows too quickly. The other group, is resentment racism (or sexism or other similar identity-group-ism), which is triggered when confronted with groups that do better than the group the racist person identifies with. This is more common on the left*. This kind of racist will see the hated group as outright evil. And if they feel sufficiently threatened by the hated group, may attempt outright genocide, since they may feel they are fighting for their life. * Nazies were full of both kinds of racism. They saw Roma people as virmin, Slavic people as merely inferior, while they were accusing Jews of attempting to seek world domination. In other words, Roma and Slavic people were sub-human while Jews were seen as Evil, inferior only for moral reasons. And as we know, the hatred against to Jews was by far the strongest. Mein Kampf describes this in detail.

psychoslave 4y ago

>SWE's are not the only ones that think that their pay is low compared to their intelligence level, their education level, how tough, inconvenient or important their work is or what they feel they deserve for some other reason. Sure, but it doesn’t mean some or all of them are not right, especially when the unequal distribution of wealth is well known and documented to evolve for the worst. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth#Global_inequality_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth#Global_...

whimsicalism 4y ago
This has to do with ownership and inheritance, not that SWEs are poorly paid laborers. Many software engineers are in the global 1% richest.
- deathanatos 4y ago
  > Many software engineers are in the global 1% richest. I mean, some are, yes, but … I'm not, and I know many SWEs who aren't. > According to the 2018 Global Wealth Report from Credit Suisse Research Institute, you need a net worth of $871,320 (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/01/how-much-money-you-need-to-be-part-of-the-1-percent-worldwide.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/01/how-much-money-you-need-to-b...) I miss that cutoff. But if you narrow to my country, the requirement for being in the top 1% jumps to $11M.
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    Yes, I said global quite intentionally.
  - trashtester 4y ago
    Most people don't get into the top 1% net worth by receiving a salary. To get there, you probably have to invest over a long time horizon (possibly more than a generation) while keeping spending to a minimum, inherit the wealth outright, or start a successful company. Even successful lawyers need to be senior partners to achieve that kind of wealth ($11M), and don't forget that for each such lawyer, there may be many people who end up as some clerk or generic legal representative in some organization, who may have salaries much closer to a SWE.

dhzhzjsbevs 4y ago

You're not wrong. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKHupWzB-g https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKHupWzB-g

trashtester 4y ago
Didn't that video make her lose her job?

TexanFeller 4y ago

HR managers are rarely ever intelligent. The work they do doesn’t require it and intelligent people don’t want to do a job where they’ll be surrounded by lower intelligence people.

trashtester 4y ago
Maybe some HR managers believe that empathy and "EQ" are more important than IQ? Maybe they even think that intelligence is a social construct invented by the Patriarchy for the purpose of oppressing people who are not "cis white males"? Who knows, maybe for some, these ideas may even have been part of their education....
- grumple 4y ago
  > Maybe some HR managers believe that empathy and "EQ" are more important than IQ? Have you ever interacted with HR? I'm pretty sure they are trained to be cold and uncaring, and to apply business rules without exception. Never heard an ounce of empathy from any of them, it always feels like interacting with an automaton that was somehow annoyed with you.
  - trashtester 4y ago
    > Have you ever interacted with HR? Plenty of times. Some that are really smart, some that are not. Some that are cold and "corporate", some that are getting way too personal. (As in a "metoo" moment.) Politically, I've met at least one that was secretly a eugenicist and others that are pretty far left. All of them individuals, but several of them collectivists.
- lmm 4y ago
  > Maybe some HR managers believe that empathy and "EQ" are more important than IQ? > Maybe they even think that intelligence is a social construct invented by the Patriarchy for the purpose of oppressing people who are not "cis white males"? Are you agreeing or disagreeing with the person you replied to?