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So it’s illegal in your opinion but not in actual fact?

by 88 4y ago

scott_w 4y ago
It’s normal for the high court to side with the government in these cases only for them to be overturned on appeal. That’s not my opinion, that’s the experience of immigration lawyers. So yes, the policy is unlawful _in fact_ but the legal process needs to catch up to that.
- 88 4y ago
  Except the Supreme Court have said they will not consider an appeal. So it is not illegal.
  - scott_w 4y ago
    They’re not ruling on legality, they’re refusing to grant injunctions on the flights. This doesn’t mean they’re legal, it means the courts won’t stop those individuals from being deported while the legal case for the policy is being argued. The decision to grant, or not, an injunction is not in itself a judgement on the underlying policy. The court did the former, not the latter.
    - camjw 4y ago
      What would it take to convince you that this policy is not illegal? (For clarity, I agree with you that it is an awful policy.)
      - scott_w 4y ago
        Very simply the Supreme Court would have to rule that the policy was legal and detail how it was in line with UN conventions on refugees. The English courts haven’t done this yet, they just said they won’t issue injunctions to prevent certain deportations.
        camjw 4y ago
        Do you expect the Supreme Court to rule on all government policy? Is it the case that you feel government policy is illegal until ruled legal by the SC? Sort of guilty until proven innocent? If the SC decides not to rule, say it just dismisses the case (not sure what the mechanisms are here) would the policy be perpetually illegal or would that be taken as tacit legality of the policy? This does seem logically consistent to me, just trying to understand your position better.
        scott_w 4y ago
        I expect the Supreme Court to rule on extremely impactful and controversial government policy that interacts with international law. That’s a huge part of its job. Whether I think it’s legal is based on what the policy is, whether it was passed into law by Parliament (in this case, there’s no Act of Parliament), what legal experts have said, whether it’s been tested by the courts. You know, how most sensible people make decisions: they look at the information available and make a decision based on that.
        camjw 4y ago
        Yeah I guess it's just interesting because there's a difference between saying its "immoral" vs "illegal". An Act of Parliament has been passed (Nationality and Borders Act 2022) which gives the legal backing for this, explicitly says that refugees which still have a pending asylum application can be moved to a "safe third country" which is willing to take the asylum responsibilities. Does this change your mind that the policy is legal, given that the information available has expanded to include, you know, all the Acts of Parliament?
        scott_w 4y ago
        No for two reasons: - it might still violate the Human Rights Act - it’s still a matter for debate whether Rwanda is safe for refugees Just reading one Act isn’t enough because real life is complicated.

So it’s illegal in your opinion but not in actual fact?

by 88 4y ago

So it’s illegal in your opinion but not in actual fact?

It’s normal for the high court to side with the government in these cases only for them to be overturned on appeal. That’s not my opinion, that’s the experience of immigration lawyers. So yes, the policy is unlawful _in fact_ but the legal process needs to catch up to that.

88 4y ago
Except the Supreme Court have said they will not consider an appeal. So it is not illegal.
- scott_w 4y ago
  They’re not ruling on legality, they’re refusing to grant injunctions on the flights. This doesn’t mean they’re legal, it means the courts won’t stop those individuals from being deported while the legal case for the policy is being argued. The decision to grant, or not, an injunction is not in itself a judgement on the underlying policy. The court did the former, not the latter.
  - camjw 4y ago
    What would it take to convince you that this policy is not illegal? (For clarity, I agree with you that it is an awful policy.)
    - scott_w 4y ago
      Very simply the Supreme Court would have to rule that the policy was legal and detail how it was in line with UN conventions on refugees. The English courts haven’t done this yet, they just said they won’t issue injunctions to prevent certain deportations.
      - camjw 4y ago
        Do you expect the Supreme Court to rule on all government policy? Is it the case that you feel government policy is illegal until ruled legal by the SC? Sort of guilty until proven innocent? If the SC decides not to rule, say it just dismisses the case (not sure what the mechanisms are here) would the policy be perpetually illegal or would that be taken as tacit legality of the policy? This does seem logically consistent to me, just trying to understand your position better.
        scott_w 4y ago
        I expect the Supreme Court to rule on extremely impactful and controversial government policy that interacts with international law. That’s a huge part of its job. Whether I think it’s legal is based on what the policy is, whether it was passed into law by Parliament (in this case, there’s no Act of Parliament), what legal experts have said, whether it’s been tested by the courts. You know, how most sensible people make decisions: they look at the information available and make a decision based on that.
        camjw 4y ago
        Yeah I guess it's just interesting because there's a difference between saying its "immoral" vs "illegal". An Act of Parliament has been passed (Nationality and Borders Act 2022) which gives the legal backing for this, explicitly says that refugees which still have a pending asylum application can be moved to a "safe third country" which is willing to take the asylum responsibilities. Does this change your mind that the policy is legal, given that the information available has expanded to include, you know, all the Acts of Parliament?
        scott_w 4y ago
        No for two reasons: - it might still violate the Human Rights Act - it’s still a matter for debate whether Rwanda is safe for refugees Just reading one Act isn’t enough because real life is complicated.